Frame Anatony

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Frame Anatony

Postby OrangeKNight » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:29 pm

So I got some questions regarding the Frames themselves. I know a few things thanks to this thread which I'll list in brief here, more details found in the thread;

Frame Control Scheme
-levers and pedals in some cases
---Military Frames mostly
---Easy to Pilot for long time periods, steep learning curve

-responsive exoskeletons
---labor/civilian frames
---like the Alien Powerloader
---Physically demanding to operate
---Easy to use

Muscle Cylinders/Muscle Cylinder Fluid(AKA Elbow Grease xD)
-Can build up a "muscle memory" of sorts.
-Muscle Cylinder Fluid contracts linearly if a current is applied.

So all that being said, I have some further questions.

-So seeing how MCs Function, would it be safe to assume that Civilian frames rely on Batteries/Capacitors while Military frames have some form of Reactor/Generator?

-So, seeing as MCs can build up a form of muscle memory, I ask is it also possible for them to exceed their specifications? Like if a New Frame was used up to or past the lifetime of the MCs without having to replace any, would there be any potential for them to be stronger/faster? Or is it more like new MCs need breaking in, they start out performing slightly sub-par and as they're used and the Muscle Memory takes hold they start working at par and in sync with the rest of the MCs?

-Speaking of Strength and Speed, which contributes more to those factors? The design of the Muscle Cylinder, the Muscle Cylinder Fluid or the strength of the Current Applied to them?

-I take it MCs are fairly similar to current day Hydraulics/Pneumatics as how they look and the basics of function aside them being fairly self contained aside from their connection to the power source?

Okay, I think that's all I got for now....

PS: Mods/Admins if you'd prefer this me merged with the thread I linked to above I'm cool with that, just figured that the other thread was fairly specific and mine is more in general overall.

Mike
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby OrangeKNight » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:15 pm

Okay so I've done a bit of thinking on this, come up with a theory or two of my own...

OrangeKNight wrote:-Speaking of Strength and Speed, which contributes more to those factors? The design of the Muscle Cylinder, the Muscle Cylinder Fluid or the strength of the Current Applied to them?

So the way I'm thinking, the MCF is is the sources of both the Strength and Speed depending on it's Purity and Viscosity. The Purity decides it's overall quality, so a cheap labor frame doing 'light' tasks would use a lower purity. The Viscosity decides the balance between Strength and Speed, a higher Viscosity MCF(basically it's thicker, like honey compared to water.) would act slower, but provide more strength or torque if you would, while a lower Viscosity MCF would act faster, but provide less Torque.

Next is the current or 'charge' that activates the MCF, I think that basically the more charge you apply the faster it will contract. The strength of the charge is automatically determined by the on board computer and/or The pilots inputs. Overrides would also be availed should the situation call for it.

Lastly we come to the Muscle Cylinder itself, one might think the MC itself wouldn't be imPortant with the MCF stealing the show, but it actually has an important role to play. For example a plain Jane MC using a low Viscosity MFC could seize up due friction based heat from the higher speed from the MFC or an MC could just break due to too much strength.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:04 pm

OrangeKNight wrote:Okay so I've done a bit of thinking on this, come up with a theory or two of my own...

OrangeKNight wrote:-Speaking of Strength and Speed, which contributes more to those factors? The design of the Muscle Cylinder, the Muscle Cylinder Fluid or the strength of the Current Applied to them?

So the way I'm thinking, the MCF is is the sources of both the Strength and Speed depending on it's Purity and Viscosity. The Purity decides it's overall quality, so a cheap labor frame doing 'light' tasks would use a lower purity. The Viscosity decides the balance between Strength and Speed, a higher Viscosity MCF(basically it's thicker, like honey compared to water.) would act slower, but provide more strength or torque if you would, while a lower Viscosity MCF would act faster, but provide less Torque.

Will EDIT to finish soonish.


Hey, neat idea! Sure!

You can also change the dimensions of the cylinder. Wider cylinders are a "lower gear" than long, skinny ones. So the former is stronger and slower than the latter.

(Technichally, it's not torque because torque is twisting power and that's an artifact of reciprocating, rotating engines like steam and internal combustion engines. This is a linear force. But "torque" does have this nontechnical connotation.)

OrangeKNight wrote:Muscle Cylinders/Muscle Cylinder Fluid(AKA Elbow Grease xD)


Nice! That sounds like a hot rodder term to me.

-So seeing how MCs Function, would it be safe to assume that Civilian frames rely on Batteries/Capacitors while Military frames have some form of Reactor/Generator?


It depends. Remember that civilian gear often have many of the same specifications as military. So, for instance, let's assume that capacitors are extremely dense but transitory storage, like they are in real life. You'd want these on both loaders that operate in a factory and on TTM frames that operate out of a transit gate. Neither wants to carry extra weight and can (if all is goes according to plan) just plug in anytime they're needed. Hell, maybe they have extension cords that they pop off like drop tanks.

Conversely, Venusian engineer nomads walk for days between terraforming stations. They probably have some sort of chemical reactor that they use so they can get out there for the long haul across the weird Venusian landscape. Similarly, TEMs operate far from their support infrastructure. I'd assume that they use some sort of reactor, probably chemical and based on something freely available everywhere, the equivalent of diesel.

-So, seeing as MCs can build up a form of muscle memory, I ask is it also possible for them to exceed their specifications? Like if a New Frame was used up to or past the lifetime of the MCs without having to replace any, would there be any potential for them to be stronger/faster? Or is it more like new MCs need breaking in, they start out performing slightly sub-par and as they're used and the Muscle Memory takes hold they start working at par and in sync with the rest of the MCs?


Why do you think I designed them like that? Furthermore, at the edge of the envelope, it has everything to do with the subtle distinctions of a pilot and their frame. If I pilot a frame for a long time, the frame gets accustomed to my asymmetries, tics, and habits of movement. Another pilot might get a benefit from piloting my frame, but if I'm a really good pilot and it's a well-seasoned frame, our combination is particularly powerful.

-I take it MCs are fairly similar to current day Hydraulics/Pneumatics as how they look and the basics of function aside them being fairly self contained aside from their connection to the power source?


I see two forms: pistons and linear bladders. Pistons are rigid and look like hydraulic pistons with a thick pair of cables coming off the end. Bladders are soft tubes wrapped in a diagonal mesh of wires to linearize the fluid.

Piston:
Image


Bladder:
Image

The cables connect to junction points, sort of "nerve bundles" throughout the frame. The more (and better-configured) of these junctions, the more intuitive, subtle, and "lifelike" the movement. It's the junctures that do the "processing" of movement, acting as connections between the cylinders across the network.

(If anyone cares about such stuff, this is an analog neural network I'm describing; the junctions are the hidden layer and the motile cylinders are both input and output layers, with output weighted. Control inputs are the converse, with inputs amplified electronically and outputs reduced by dint of the scale of the cylinders to give force feedback without actually harming the pilot. The pilot's inputs train the junctions directly in order to move the cylinders)
Last edited by Joshua A.C. Newman on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby OrangeKNight » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:00 am

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:Hey, neat idea! Sure!

You can also change the dimensions of the cylinder. Wider cylinders are a "lower gear" than long, skinny ones. So the former is stronger and slower than the latter.

(Technichally, it's not torque because torque is twisting power and that's an artifact of reciprocating, rotating engines like steam and internal combustion engines. This is a linear force. But "torque" does have this nontechnical connotation.)

Yeah Torque might not me the most correct term, but I figured it'd get the point across xD

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:
OrangeKNight wrote:Muscle Cylinders/Muscle Cylinder Fluid(AKA Elbow Grease xD)

Nice! That sounds like a hot rodder term to me.

It's also quicker to type! xD Now we just need something we can use "Headlight Fluid" For! xD

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:It depends. Remember that civilian gear often have many of the same specifications as military. So, for instance, let's assume that capacitors are extremely dense but transitory storage, like they are in real life. You'd want these on both loaders that operate in a factory and on TTM frames that operate out of a transit gate. Neither wants to carry extra weight and can (if all is goes according to plan) just plug in anytime they're needed. Hell, maybe they have extension cords that they pop off like drop tanks.

Conversely, Venusian engineer nomads walk for days between terraforming stations. They probably have some sort of chemical reactor that they use so they can get out there for the long haul across the weird Venusian landscape. Similarly, TEMs operate far from their support infrastructure. I'd assume that they use some sort of reactor, probably chemical and based on something freely available everywhere, the equivalent of diesel.

Interesting, I guess like many things in life, it isn't black and white and different tools were used for different situations.

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:Why do you think I designed them like that? Furthermore, at the edge of the envelope, it has everything to do with the subtle distinctions of a pilot and their frame. If I pilot a frame for a long time, the frame gets accustomed to my asymmetries, tics, and habits of movement. Another pilot might get a benefit from piloting my frame, but if I'm a really good pilot and it's a well-seasoned frame, our combination is particularly powerful.

So is this in reference to a frame becoming stronger/faster as it's used or more so the rest and how introducing and replacing old MCs with new ones effects the rest?

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:
-I take it MCs are fairly similar to current day Hydraulics/Pneumatics as how they look and the basics of function aside them being fairly self contained aside from their connection to the power source?

I see two forms: pistons and linear bladders. Pistons are rigid and look like hydraulic pistons with a thick pair of cables coming off the end. Bladders are soft tubes wrapped in a diagonal mesh of wires to linearize the fluid.

So I can see the Pistons being used for simpler motions(like an opening flap or something and such) while the bladders used from the more complex joints like shoulders and wrists

Also not to nag, but you ended up missing my edit(had to switch computers on a lunch break! xD)

OrangeKNight wrote:Next is the current or 'charge' that activates the MCF, I think that basically the more charge you apply the faster it will contract. The strength of the charge is automatically determined by the on board computer and/or The pilots inputs. Overrides would also be availed should the situation call for it.

Lastly we come to the Muscle Cylinder itself, one might think the MC itself wouldn't be important with the MCF stealing the show, but it actually has an important role to play. For example a plain Jane MC using a low Viscosity MFC could seize up due friction based heat from the higher speed from the MFC or an MC could just break due to too much strength.


Thanks for the input and background info, might not be needed for playing the game or making mechs, but I'm sure the writers will be all over this! :D

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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:43 am

I'm sure there are a million ways to push the envelope or otherwise abuse specification! Since this is a Real Robot thing, some of those abuses of spec surely will give pilots superpowers!

As for power sources, the engine in a diesel train is the same type as that in a main battle tank: a diesel turbine. That's because they need to haul heavy loads with a readily available fuel. Sure, the B2 engine has some sort of top-secret noise reduction thing, but the engines are still turbines just like in a 707 (I'd guess that they're both turbofans... Yep, Wikipedia confirms) Details are twiddled, but they operate under the same physics and so use the same principles. They also rely on very similar logistics.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:57 am

The inspiration for this system, at least the mechanical part of it, comes from pneumatic air muscles. Check out this video from about 3:04. I mean, the rest is great, too. I'm a big Festo fan. But you can see the influence here. This is what the inside of a frame looks like; alternately, the bladders might wrap around a shape or be armored inside a cylinder as a piston.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby XGundam05 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:05 am

It was said somewhere that the cylinders can react to each other as inputs, thus allowing them to learn. It seems to me that Basically what was described was a neural network. (Is late, and on mobile device, hence possibly disjointed and hard to follow sentences.)

I state/ask this as this would make it theoretically possible (though difficult and involved, and not within my purview ) to create an accurate simulation in a computer environment. Not only that, but it adds another layer of plausibility.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby MittenNinja » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:The inspiration for this system, at least the mechanical part of it, comes from pneumatic air muscles. Check out this video from about 3:04. I mean, the rest is great, too. I'm a big Festo fan. But you can see the influence here. This is what the inside of a frame looks like; alternately, the bladders might wrap around a shape or be armored inside a cylinder as a piston.


Wow, that's insane! Labor frames may be coming sooner than we thought.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:19 pm

XGundam05 wrote:It was said somewhere that the cylinders can react to each other as inputs, thus allowing them to learn. It seems to me that Basically what was described was a neural network. (Is late, and on mobile device, hence possibly disjointed and hard to follow sentences.)

I state/ask this as this would make it theoretically possible (though difficult and involved, and not within my purview ) to create an accurate simulation in a computer environment. Not only that, but it adds another layer of plausibility.


It's a lot like an analog computer, yeah. It would be waaaay slower than an electronic one, though.
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby XGundam05 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:28 pm

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:
XGundam05 wrote:It was said somewhere that the cylinders can react to each other as inputs, thus allowing them to learn. It seems to me that Basically what was described was a neural network. (Is late, and on mobile device, hence possibly disjointed and hard to follow sentences.)

I state/ask this as this would make it theoretically possible (though difficult and involved, and not within my purview ) to create an accurate simulation in a computer environment. Not only that, but it adds another layer of plausibility.


It's a lot like an analog computer, yeah. It would be waaaay slower than an electronic one, though.


It's more the fact that the muscle cylinders are able to be trained as a group. The cylinders act as the neurons with the controls acting as inputs, and the movement acting as the outputs. The neurons can then vary the amount that they, and the inputs attached to them, affect the outputs. This variance can be positively and negatively reinforced based on the desired output (trained). This is a loose description of a neural network as I understand them...which also seems to be a description of how the muscle cylinders interact with each other as I understand it.

(Neural nets are a very interesting AI concept that gets heavily discussed in the Indie game development community.)
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Re: Frame Anatony

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:37 am

Well, a neural net is a computer simulating a particular, simplified model of a natural neural network. To use this as a computer, you'd be using a physical network to recreate a digital simulation of a natural neural network simulating a computer.

That is,myou could train this to be a digital computer, but it's not one by nature. It's very much analog.
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