GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

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GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby MoronicCinamun » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:18 pm

So, this was a question I had on my mind for a long time.
I did some research here to make sure it's not duplicate, ended up getting stuck on Atomic Rockets for more than is probably healthy for my sanity/homework.

I don't want to go as far as ask if rail/Gauss/etc. weapons are viable in canon (as they work irl, just lots of issues with power, rail degradation, etc.)
I can assume power sources are aight since lasers are used in official printed canon.

But here my main question is about the "lower-tech" end. What are the sluggas like? I imagine that conventional guns would probably be caseless by this point of time. While caseless guns have some disadvantages, i.e. ejecting the "hot brass" really does help prevent the gun from overheating, I'd imagine with the tech available in such an age, they wouldn't be much of a problem (the same stuff that ensures railguns work here)

I could also see a caseless design using something more akin to a stable explosive (see c4), in that only an electrical charge could trigger it, thus making heat not a risk, and enabling EXTRA rof by potentially cutting out almost all of the mechanical aspects outside of loading the rounds in! (note: ALIEN(s) Pulse Rifles and the Smart Guns are pulse fired like so, and are caseless, so I may have stolen this idea from there ;) )

Of course, I guess cases might not be all that bad, maybe in some cases (pun intended) it's better, such as a heavy caliber round (read: cannon) where fire rate is by no means a priority. But I'd still think that they would have moved passed "gun powder" as we know it today, into something at least a little bit better; with all the stuff left to find in chemistry and meta materials and never-mind smaller scales (NANOMACHINES, SON), I'm sure this is completely plausible, especially in an age of wormhole generation ;)

So I guess tl;dr is "what are bullets like in MF0" (nit pick note: I am of course referring to the entire "Round", not just the projectile itself)
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Sovietshadow » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:56 pm

Well i can't exactly say what the bullets are, but by looking at a few of the guns i would speculate that they're using cartridges (brass or otherwise). Now personally I think caseless would work better, and for a book I'm writing i solved the overheating problem with "cooling gel" that not only cooled the barrel but also made the gun too heavy for civilian use. COPYRIGHTED!
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby CmdrRook » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:59 am

Do not discount the utility of gunpowder, especially in the frontier. It does not need to be shipped through a transit gate as it can be crafted from simple and common compounds found or produced naturally. It has mining applications, and is quite efficient at producing force, converting almost entirely into gas via the application of not very much heat. Shell casings can be crafted from a variety of cheap materials, brass generally considered the best of which because it doesn't lose much structural integrity through usage, meaning you can recycle and reload the spent casings, further saving cost and materials. Steel is cheaper, but casings tend to rupture or deform more drastically, forcing you to scrap them more often.

Caseless rounds require precision molds, bonding agents, and temperature-controlled environments to create. If exposed to humidity or temperature extremes, they become unreliable. It's certainly possible that the distant future might see a few of these issues resolved, but in context, it seems like a costlier process when a similar effect can be achieved with more traditional means. I do like the concept of electronic triggers, though. The fire rate out of a weapon like that is positively unreal.

Here are some images I scrounged from the Rapid Attack Rule-Book appearing to showcase conventional cased projectile weapons.

Image
The Chub is carrying a carbine or long pistol sporting a Bizon-style helical magazine under the barrel, and a franken-reciever that seems Uzi-esque in the back, and more like a G36 up front. A shell-ejection port is visible below the carry-handle and sight. The Conscript is using a laser rifle, I believe.

Image
While we can't see any potential shell-ejecting port from this angle, this L85-esque "Alaskan" has a curved box-magazine, suggesting cased rounds that have a cumulative angle when stacked. This would require an extractor and bolt assembly to feed and cycle the rounds, presumably ejecting spent casings to the right.

Image
More Chub-stuff. The left-most weapons of the bottom row hint towards cased ammunition with their magazines. The left-most machinegun has a PKM-style box magazine which houses a belt of ammunition in actuality. Again, to feed and cycle, an extractor is used in conjunction with a reciprocating bolt to discard empty casings and links from the side of the weapon while continuously feeding live rounds. The rifle adjacent to the right is ambiguous. The magazine could be transparent, showing the "brass" inside, or it could be a battery meant to power a laser. The portion directly below the barrel looks a lot like the gas-port and piston housing of your typical conventional firearm, but there isn't really enough detail to confirm. Skipping over the Panzerfaust, we find a G11-styled rifle with an under-barrel grenade launcher. Though the design harkens to an real-world caseless rifle, I believe the main weapon to be a laser, but under-barrel launchers tend to use cased warheads, and here we can see two of these projectiles scattered about. To the right of the Chub is a rotary cannon with an affixed ammo drum. While there is no visible ejector, my bet is on cased ammunition, as most caseless designs wouldn't jive well with a cylindrical storage space.

Image
Though seemingly self-explanatory, this image actually begs a few questions. Most pressing is the manner by which the casing is being ejected. While there doesn't appear to be any "action" rear of the chamber, I suppose some form of automation from below could be cycling the ammunition.

Image
Upon close inspection, it would appear that the "Tickler" fires rocket-propelled ammunition rather than more conventional cased warheads.

Image
Alternatively, the "Peach-Chucker" uses a drum-fed design instead of the "Tickler's" and "Pea-Shooter's" carousel, making exposed rocket-engine parts a liability due to damage during feeding or premature ignition inside the drum. Gyrojets fire rocket rounds from a magazine, however, making them a modern-day Bolter of yester-year. I'd assume this weapon uses a similar design, if not cased ammunition. The "Rainmaker" certainly feeds from a magazine, but the detail in Lego is not sufficient to lend further speculation.

Hope this offers some answers to your questions, Cinamun. I'll be sure to ask Joshua if he has anything to add, next week.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby MoronicCinamun » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:51 pm

Sovietshadow wrote:Well i can't exactly say what the bullets are, but by looking at a few of the guns i would speculate that they're using cartridges (brass or otherwise). Now personally I think caseless would work better, and for a book I'm writing i solved the overheating problem with "cooling gel" that not only cooled the barrel but also made the gun too heavy for civilian use. COPYRIGHTED!


One idea I have been toying with in my fluffy stuff is what I call "semi-caseless" (ALSO COPYRIGHT ;) ), that is behind the block of stable propellant is a small coin-sized piece of metal (or bigger at this scale probably), which both acts as the conductor for the electric pulse and is ejected to help cool the weapon; while this still requires an extraction step in the action, since it's such an extremely tiny length compared to a full round it's still very fast.

And Rook, wow, thatnks, that's a lot of stuff (I didn't quote because yea :p)
The gyrojet bolter round certainly is an interesting idea that I had forgotten, but like you seemed to imply is probably better for explosive projectiles.

I don't mean to be "underestimating" standard powder, but I'd think they'd have something almost as easy to make but more efficient by this point :p
From what I know, you can make black powder with rather typical "random" stuff, no machinery required, but I'd assume through a transit gate they probably would have tools to make something more advanced, the same they don't just revert to wood-stoves because they are landing on a forested world, but probably have some sort of battery charger (solar or something), ya know? But that might be me STRAW-MANNING, I'd just assume in this kind of future there would be small and effective enough fabrication thingies to take through a gate that could manufacture simple explosives like powder, but just a bit better. Also I have a fetish for blue muzzle flashes >.>

But you are right, it does appear from the a good deal of the art the guns are cased, but I must object to one thing: A caseless firearm would probably still have an "ejection port", to clear jams/cycle the action/etc., the same way an action can expel the whole round with bullet (i.e. unfired) if needed. This is probably a good place to say I'm not the most familiar with firearms, everything I know is from second hand sources (i.e. reading lots of stuff), having not had the pleasure of maintaining a gun myself.
Also, I see no reason why a caseless round couldn't be made cylindrical, certainly in the future. I'm sure they have some sort of bonding agent or can even use some sort of "combustible" solid coating; I seem to recall some 60s era German MBT that had a main gun with casings that burnt up when fired, minimizing the extraction step ( pre-post "edit": apparently, it is the MBT-70).

Also, somewhat unrelated (as I am more concerned with like simple "machine guns" than advanced high powered sniper/cannon/etc. systems in this thread): The Soviet BMP-1 was equipped with a giant bolter.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby CmdrRook » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:53 pm

Semi-caseless is fesible, but why not just have your chamber and barrel be constructed of a conductive material with an external heat-sink or cooling system?

It would be very difficult to mistake the hatch by which rounds that fail to fire are removed for a typical ejection port mostly due to the atypical loading system of the weapon and complete lack of extracting mechanisms inside. Observe.
Image

Yes, you have wormhole technology, but only the lightest of multitasking equipment would be sent out into the fringes of space. IC engines can heat your home, pump water, charge a battery, and- most importantly- run a Frame. The equipment used for compressing and sealing a brick of propellant around a single caliber projectile is useless for anything else and would have to be built on site from something useful, where as something as simple as a tool die could be re-purposed temporarily for sizing and fitting a casing to a hunk of steel, both of which you can fabricate using a forge and a pour mold made of something as ubiquitous as sand. As such, the tech and machinery hammering out caseless ammo would most likely be from a factory specializing in that alone on a core world, a well-supplied space-station, or a ship. The ammo might not be expensive, but it would probably belong almost exclusive to the SU forces stationed there-in.

I'm not nay-saying or trying to harsh your idea. You asked, I felt compelled to answer, and I may be completely wrong. I will ask the man himself, though.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby MoronicCinamun » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:52 pm

Its alright man I understand that you arent dream crushing, and I am clearly biased on way so it makes sense you would tilt scale to bring balance.
You probably are right that most would use the stabler, cheaper option, with the advanced stuff being mostly used by the top guys (I'd imagine the best paid mercs and Transit/Expeditionary Marines.
But I do appreciate you asking the BIG MAN himself, I forgot to mention that before.
Either way it got me thinking, and a mixing may be best idea.


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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Atavism » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:22 pm

I could see using caseless ammunitions to reduce transit mass, especially for frequently travelling mercenaries or established, high-income colonies that can afford the specialized manufacturing that would be involved. Advanced polymer casings are more likely, as they would reduce mass without as much specialization.

That said, caseless ammunition doesn't offer any meaningful advantage from a fighting perspective, especially when you factor in frames. The reasoning behind engineering caseless weapons was that the reduced delay between shots would allow for tighter patterns from bursts of fire. This is because the weapon's recoil would have less time to affect the shooter. A frame could either have mechanical stabilization (not to mention the raw strength) to hold a weapon in place without significant recoil, or would have the load capacity that fitting recoil mitigating systems (like the springs in a Barrett rifle) are practical in an infantry weapon in ways they aren't when people have to lug them around.

Outside of this particular, higher rates of fire stop being helpful after a certain point. During WW1 high capacity, high fire rate arms were a big deal because combat was still mass infantry attacks, but modern fighting fully automatic fire is used tactically to suppress enemies rather than kill them. After a certain rounds-per-minute, a high rate of fire is just the ability to run out of ammunition faster.

I look more at how tank and aircraft weapons are advancing when thinking about how frame weapons would be. Their evolution is more focused on armor penetration and using technology to improve engagement ranges, and weight is less of a constraint than with infantry.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Red_Robot » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:05 pm

When considering the nature of projectile weapons and what could be considered canon (and cannon) for the Solar Calendar, consider the nature of Solar Union tech and the spirit behind it. We aren't just building game pieces out of LEGO, but the Solar Calendar is inspired by LEGO in that a lot of Earth tech is versatile and has multiple applications and sometimes gets applied in creative and unforseen ways out on the frontier. Utility, pragmatism and necessity are things that drive application.

Old fashioned cased ammunition is likely in use because it is tried and true technology. Easy to put into production, and most likely very efficient in cost versus performance issues. And those considerations drive a lot of things in the Solar Calendar. CmdrRook has done an excellent job sighting examples in the rule book. In the Solar Calendar it seems cased ammunition is here to stay.

But there are are lots of different ways to throw a bullet at a target. Right now, real world tech is working on projectile weapons that use rows of bullets stacked in a column in a gun's barrel. Each bullet it fired by an electric charge, and the entire stack can be fired in rapid succession. This is effectively caseless ammunition and the weapon can achieve astounding rates of fire in bursts. I am not entirely certain where, and my memory may be faulty, but I believe Soren himself mentioned in a thread that this is actually how the Tickler grenade launcher pictured in CmdrRook's post operates. The Tickler is not a rotary grenade launcher in the standard sense, but each of those tubes has a stack of grenades that fires by piezoelectric charge and then the cylinder rotates when the tube is emptied.

And apparently cased ammunition fires just fine in the vacuum of space. The problem there lies not in the rounds but in the common lubricants used in terrestrial weapons. Gun oil boils away in space it seems, and leaves a gummy residue that could lead to weapon jams. So the solution there lies in the mechanism, not the ammunition.

The Solar Calendar encompasses lots of different levels of tech, and gleefully embraces them all. SU military frames with beam swords clash with Free Colony conscripts armed with crowbars. You could have a converted rivet gun driven by muscle cylinders that you use to dakka Ijad ghanats. Soren has a picture of a frame on here somewhere that is using a crossbow grenade launcher. Lowest Form of Wit had an awesome frame that was using a compound bow. You could have a frame that smashes cannonballs at the enemy by swinging a giant bat. If it works, then it gets used. The nice thing about the rules is, you don't get penalized for being low tech or get advantages by being high tech. A converted mining laser is just as good as a gyrostabilized bin-fed rail gun. So...if you want your cutting edge TEM frames to be sporting caseless firing assault rifles...I'd say the liklihood is definitely there.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Atavism » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:46 pm

Red_Robot wrote:The Solar Calendar encompasses lots of different levels of tech, and gleefully embraces them all. SU military frames with beam swords clash with Free Colony conscripts armed with crowbars. You could have a converted rivet gun driven by muscle cylinders that you use to dakka Ijad ghanats. Soren has a picture of a frame on here somewhere that is using a crossbow grenade launcher. Lowest Form of Wit had an awesome frame that was using a compound bow. You could have a frame that smashes cannonballs at the enemy by swinging a giant bat. If it works, then it gets used. The nice thing about the rules is, you don't get penalized for being low tech or get advantages by being high tech. A converted mining laser is just as good as a gyrostabilized bin-fed rail gun. So...if you want your cutting edge TEM frames to be sporting caseless firing assault rifles...I'd say the liklihood is definitely there.


This is probably the best answer,the DIY nature of the universe supports a lot of stuff.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby CmdrRook » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:47 pm

Agreed entirely.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby MoronicCinamun » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:43 pm

Well, there is a LOT of great info here (and probably the greatest response rate on any of my posts ;) )

I didn't know about the tickler bit, that's actually pretty cool. Although I'm still inclined to disagree with the idea that RoF beyond a certain point is useless, as that's why weapons fire in bursts; even if the recoil isn't a problem, having a bunch of rounds hit nigh-simultaneously could be good idea, but I guess you're probably right, better off just using a big-arse round at that point.

From what I know, the "problem" with gun powder is that the projectile can't move (much?) faster than the speed of which the gas expands, thus why alternate methods are looked into; using hydrogen for example is one near-future tech that looks promising. This is also why electrostatic (rail) and electromagnetic (gauss/coil) are also being researched, although they too have problems that the future tech solves (high friction and degradation and forces in rails; energy efficiency and power supply in both cases). I'm of course disregarding particle beam weapons here, even though much of the damage would be kinetic (probably, I don't think there is real world instances of weapon-grade particle accelerators firing into macro-sized military targets).

I guess it all boils down to my desire to make my sci-fi as "hard" as possible. I wasn't even sure what I was expecting with "official canon", since I guess all the laser-particle-plasma-gravity-singularity-rocket-propelled-axe-saw stuff is considered just as viable as simple sluggas and knives.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Ryujin » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:16 pm

The gun to the left of the Panzerfaust is a gussied-up Rheinmetall HBS 202 firing cased rounds. The G-11-ish weapon to the Pz's right is a caseless automatic weapon; it's also what the Commissar is using in the other pic (clearly a weapon being turned against its former owners). The Alaskan uses cased rounds.

The R-16 recoilless uses some of the exhaust gasses to push the spent casing out of the venturi's center right after the shell leaves the barrel.

The 'Tickler' is actually a stacked-projectile system similar to the MetalStorm; the cylinder doesn't rotate revolver-style. 'Ease of reloading' means that the entire cylinder gets switched out. Each barrel contains three VOG-25-style grenades stacked on top of each other, for a total of 21 grenades. See this thread for details.

Electromagnetic mass drivers & such are used by warships, but I can't really confirm anything about MF-scaled weapons.

With the availability of cased/caseless stuff, it's more about logistics than anything.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Sovietshadow » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:51 am

I happen to know a bit (ok, a lot) about certain weapons because of random web searchs when i get bored, so... here:
cased ammo and guns: good, reliable. Heavier than most types ammo-wise, but cartridges can be reloaded (although on a frame scale that could take some pretty heavy equipment and LOTS of powder.
Caseless: faster rate of fire with stacked "metalstorm" magazines, altogether less likely to jam, and fewer moving parts, so more accurate. However, you now need a battery to fire the rounds and a more effective cooling method.
semi-caseless. Cool and inventive, with a slightly faster firing rate than cased... worth looking in to
railgun: depending on the power, can be far faster (and thus far deadlier) than regular powder-based weapons. It takes a lot of power to operate, but if you have enough power (and because we have giant frames i imagine we have that power) then you can cause some serious damage. Rai degredation isn't really that much of a problem (its the same as using a regular bullet, with the round being made of a slightly softer metal than the barrel).
particle weapons: interesting, with the mass of a gun and the heat of a laser. It's damaging, but it takes some serious hardware to make a weaponized version.
laser: perhaps the most promising of future weaponry. Lasers use gas or powder for the excitable material to make energy, then that energy is focused through a series of lens to create a powerful heat. It can burn through armor in milliseconds. The drawbacks are the need for large amounts of coolant and needing to keep the lens in line... which is rather difficult on the battlefield.
Plasma: uses gases or powders like lasers, but skips the lens and just spits it out. You can use nearly any gas (although some work better than others) and it's just as hot as a laser. A fun fact is that for further damage it is possible to use plasma for a railgun, as the electromagnetic properties actually prevent the plasma from touching the barrel. You have the same coolant drawbacks, but no lens to keep in shape... plus it looks really cool :)
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Red_Robot » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:39 am

Red_Robot wrote:...my memory may be faulty, but I believe Soren himself mentioned in a thread that this is actually how the Tickler grenade launcher pictured in CmdrRook's post operates.


Ryujin wrote:The 'Tickler' is actually a stacked-projectile system similar to the MetalStorm; the cylinder doesn't rotate revolver-style. 'Ease of reloading' means that the entire cylinder gets switched out. Each barrel contains three VOG-25-style grenades stacked on top of each other, for a total of 21 grenades. See this thread for details.


And I stand corrected. It wasn't Soren but Ryujin here. And when it comes to "official canon" on tech specs for weapons, it doesn't get much more official than Mr. Gan himself. Thanks for peeking in on our little discussion here, Ryujin.

MoronicCinamun wrote:I guess it all boils down to my desire to make my sci-fi as "hard" as possible. I wasn't even sure what I was expecting with "official canon", since I guess all the laser-particle-plasma-gravity-singularity-rocket-propelled-axe-saw stuff is considered just as viable as simple sluggas and knives.


The Solar Calendar is very much informed by Hard Science. But what I like about it is the Solar Calendar setting is also very much driven by real world concerns like economics, politics and culture. Pragmatism drives a lot of the form and function of Solar Union tech. 50 billion is a lot of mouths to feed, and the Earth cannot sustain it's current system without a steady infusion of outside resources. This drives economics. Economics informs decision making. And so it becomes bullets for peaches.

But at the same time Joshua acknowledged that this is a game about little giant fighty robots built out of LEGO and that the target audience for this game likely grew up watching hours of Gundam and Star Wars and we likely had transparent colored 4L rods in our brick collections that we couldn't keep out of our hands (or our robot's hands). And thus, even though Hard Science says lightsabers aren't very realistic, fun says laser swords are awesome. And so the Solar Calendar has fusion edges. In many ways, this is also pragmatism informing decisions on Solar Calendar tech. Only this is the pragmatism of fun.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby CmdrRook » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:36 pm

Ryujin wrote:
The R-16 recoilless uses some of the exhaust gasses to push the spent casing out of the venturi's center right after the shell leaves the barrel.


How is the shell secured in the chamber during firing with such limited space for moving parts behind it? Not challenging the assessment, just curious.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Atavism » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:04 pm

CmdrRook wrote:
Ryujin wrote:
The R-16 recoilless uses some of the exhaust gasses to push the spent casing out of the venturi's center right after the shell leaves the barrel.


How is the shell secured in the chamber during firing with such limited space for moving parts behind it? Not challenging the assessment, just curious.


Securing the shell doesn't take any more than a hunk of metal behind it. Extracting the shell and replacing it with a fresh one is questionable. I looked into automatic recoilless guns, and everything I could find used a cylinder system like a revolver (some of them were even caseless, btw!). Then again, this is just a picture of a traditional recoilless rifle with a magazine added to the top, so lets all just agree it totally works and is awesome.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby CmdrRook » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:16 pm

Atavism wrote:
CmdrRook wrote:
Ryujin wrote:
The R-16 recoilless uses some of the exhaust gasses to push the spent casing out of the venturi's center right after the shell leaves the barrel.


How is the shell secured in the chamber during firing with such limited space for moving parts behind it? Not challenging the assessment, just curious.


Securing the shell doesn't take any more than a hunk of metal behind it. Extracting the shell and replacing it with a fresh one is questionable. I looked into automatic recoilless guns, and everything I could find used a cylinder system like a revolver (some of them were even caseless, btw!). Then again, this is just a picture of a traditional recoilless rifle with a magazine added to the top, so lets all just agree it totally works and is awesome.


Absolutely correct, but in the case of this weapon, I have trouble envisioning where a bolt might disappear to in order to allow the shell to exit unimpeded through the rear of the weapon. Perhaps an aperture that is actuated via gas-system? Hell, enough friction and a thick enough casing and you might not need ANYTHING behind it to keep it in place until the round is well on its way, but then you're basically firing self-contained cannons through a larger cannon. I get that it sounds more nit-picky than I'm trying to be. I simply have a MIGHTY NEED to understand this concept. I have a passion for firearms, and this falls under that purview.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Atavism » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:26 pm

Well, based on what Ryujin said it comes out the right side rather than the back like the picture shows. It could have an action that rotates the bolt over to the side to eject the shell or something. I'm sticking with the explanation that pooting them out the back was just a leftover from how a traditional recoilless rifles are loaded, and it sounded good when it was first sketched up.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Atavism » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:55 pm

Just spitballing, but if you really wanted it to work like the pic you could say it used a heavy duty casing that was locked into place to complete the breech, and it had a gas piston timed to release the latch and blow the shell out the back.
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Re: GUNS, GLORIOUS GUNS

Postby Sovietshadow » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:38 pm

Looking at the recoiless rifle, and it's modern counterparts, i would say that it might use a system similar to modern artillery, which closes a striker behind the round after its loaded, then automatically expels the shell. However, i would say the best way to create something like this (to which i've given much thought to before reading this thread) is to use some king of rubber ring (like the o-ring in submersibles) to block the bullet from coming out the back, fire the shell electronically (which would require caseless ammunition), then stretch the o-ring to the sides and let the automatic extractor do its job... i don't know why i keep writing down all of my (COPYRIGHTED! :) ) book material, but i guess it's nice to talk about the actual feasibility of such designs.
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