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Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:30 am
by Ced23Ric
Audible feedback is already used daily. Think GPS-assisted navigation. "Turn left at the next intersection." - there's no intelligence to that, just a different medium of output.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:10 pm
by Joshua A.C. Newman
If a system is dynamically optimizing engines, that's the equivalent to the computer in your car, circa 1990. If it has a voice interface, OK. That might be a good way to do it.

Someday I'll do a dedicated game about artificial intelligence. Maybe even soon. But it's going to act more like the stock market than a person.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:21 pm
by ferrelferret
In the RP thread, my character Andren Hite has what I called an AI. But it is more accurately a Virtual Intelligence.

Andren programed it himself to follow specific protocols. It talks like a real person, and sometimes even seems like a person. (To Andren, Mila is a real person.) But, a VI is just a fancy interface for ones computer.

~ferret~

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:49 am
by Joshua A.C. Newman
What you're talking about sounds like Siri. It's a two-way voice interface with enough variability to keep from repeating itself mechanically. But intelligent, it ain't. It can't develop new ways of understanding to infer things about its environment, doesn't have emotional decisionmaking capabilities, and can't reason inductively.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:01 am
by Soren
I'm going to link this excellent article by Charlie Stross before the discussion goes too much further - my own reservations about AI more or less parallel his, so it'll save time.

My own favorite route to AI-as-popularly-conceived is Rudy Rucker's, where a rogue academic decides to gift his robots with consciousness for ethical reasons.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:06 am
by Mantisking
Soren wrote:My own favorite route to AI-as-popularly-conceived is Rudy Rucker's, where a rogue academic decides to gift his robots with consciousness for ethical reasons.

I thought I recognized the name. I've read one of his books, Mathematicians in Love.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:16 am
by Joshua A.C. Newman
We should maybe have an "other SF" forum for this kind of conversation. Rucker or Stross and giant robots are as distant from each other as pizza and apple pie: they look and sound like they might belong in the same category but only most superficially.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:19 am
by Joshua A.C. Newman
I encourage you fully to dig the stuzzy Ware Tetralogy. It was truly eye-opening for me at 12, you wave.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:41 am
by David Artman
Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:...artificial intelligence ... going to act more like the stock market than a person.
May I recommend a few free ebooks by Peter Watts?
* Starfish (setup, but interesting)
* Maelstrom (this is your huckleberry)
* Behemoth (to wrap up)

A sort of crude AI evolves in the Internet, and it is quite a bit like a stock market (or a meme web site! AI will evolve from ICanHasCheezburgerz!!!).

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:30 am
by ferrelferret
Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:What you're talking about sounds like Siri. It's a two-way voice interface with enough variability to keep from repeating itself mechanically. But intelligent, it ain't. It can't develop new ways of understanding to infer things about its environment, doesn't have emotional decisionmaking capabilities, and can't reason inductively.

Yeah, it kind of is. They can't think for themselves; they just follow what they are programmed to do. So, self-piloted mecha aren't possible. But, something like the little gun probes on the mecha in Gundam are possible.

~ferret~

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:51 am
by Joshua A.C. Newman
Thanks, David!

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:13 pm
by Zero Revenge
ferrelferret wrote:But, something like the little gun probes on the mecha in Gundam are possible.

~ferret~

What gun probes?

...Wait, Funnels? Funnels are directly controlled by the pilot via brainwaves.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:37 pm
by ferrelferret
Zero Revenge wrote:What gun probes?

...Wait, Funnels? Funnels are directly controlled by the pilot via brainwaves.

You found me out, Zero.

Not a huge fan of Gundam.

But, something like them could be based on VIs.

~ferret~

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:41 pm
by Zero Revenge
ferrelferret wrote:You found me out, Zero.

Not a huge fan of Gundam.

But, something like them could be based on VIs.

~ferret~

Not a fan? For shame. ;P

Ironically enough, there is a Computer-assisted version of Funnels, called INCOM's. That stands for something, but i'm too lazy to find out what exactly... They're effectively "wired funnels".

Point is, the Purple Suit here [the Rozen Zulu] uses them here to quite the spectacular effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jikrsIXQOVo (46s in)

...God damn, that quality is hutchin' TERRIBLE.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:58 pm
by CrimsonKMR
Zero Revenge wrote:
ferrelferret wrote:You found me out, Zero.

Not a huge fan of Gundam.

But, something like them could be based on VIs.

~ferret~

Not a fan? For shame. ;P

Ironically enough, there is a Computer-assisted version of Funnels, called INCOM's. That stands for something, but i'm too lazy to find out what exactly... They're effectively "wired funnels".

Point is, the Purple Suit here [the Rozen Zulu] uses them here to quite the spectacular effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jikrsIXQOVo (46s in)

...God damn, that quality is hutchin' TERRIBLE.


Wired funnels were also used on the Moebius Zero, although those were not AI controlled either XD

Probably the best AI example I can think of is the Haros from 00. Orange Haro runs basic defense and targetting algorithms for Lockon, and the other Haros help in ship repair. Those functions are just self-mobile programmed bots with a rudimentary AI for conversations

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:04 pm
by Zero Revenge
Are they truly an AI then? Wouldn't HARO's be more of a VI?

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:12 pm
by CrimsonKMR
Zero Revenge wrote:Are they truly an AI then? Wouldn't HARO's be more of a VI?


At the level of AI in MF0, is there really a difference between VI and AI? XD

But yes, 00's Haro would be more a VI than an AI. I was just trying to think of a good example :lol:

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:22 pm
by Deathzero
I know its already been said that there were "wired" versions of the Gundam Fin Funnels, I just wanted to state that they were in the earlier series as well. Zeon made a good bit of use out of wired funnels. Provided that thrusters could be made small enough, the wired version would totally be feasible as frame weaponry. o_O

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:19 pm
by afny
Deathzero wrote:I know its already been said that there were "wired" versions of the Gundam Fin Funnels, I just wanted to state that they were in the earlier series as well. Zeon made a good bit of use out of wired funnels. Provided that thrusters could be made small enough, the wired version would totally be feasible as frame weaponry. o_O


I had a frame with bits (a few iterations of it, actually) but as I've sunk my teeth into the setting more I've sort of ruled that kind of weaponry out. Even the most primitive multi-directional attacks in Gundam (wired Bits as pioneered by the Elmeth) required a powerful Newtype to control them; even without wireless psychic input, they still needed the sixth sense of a Newtype to coordinate attacks. Also, those early Bits only functioned in space, making use of directional thrusters; the didn't have to fly.

Theoretically, a frame could be equipped with one or two wired Bits and operate them in a space combat scenario, but the amount of concentration/calculation this type of attack would demand of the pilot and her systems would be phenomenal-- like flying two remote control airplanes (while accounting for low visibility and a frictionless zero G environment) while SIMULTANEOUSLY piloting a frame under the those same conditions. This operation might be slightly easier in atmosphere, but more demanding power-wise, and would still require extreme levels of multitasking. Even if you factor in primitive AI, it seems like this is just one big overly complex solution that could be solved easier and cheaper by a bunch of missiles.

Re: AI how advanced

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:32 pm
by Deathzero
afny wrote:
Deathzero wrote:I know its already been said that there were "wired" versions of the Gundam Fin Funnels, I just wanted to state that they were in the earlier series as well. Zeon made a good bit of use out of wired funnels. Provided that thrusters could be made small enough, the wired version would totally be feasible as frame weaponry. o_O


I had a frame with bits (a few iterations of it, actually) but as I've sunk my teeth into the setting more I've sort of ruled that kind of weaponry out. Even the most primitive multi-directional attacks in Gundam (wired Bits as pioneered by the Elmeth) required a powerful Newtype to control them; even without wireless psychic input, they still needed the sixth sense of a Newtype to coordinate attacks. Also, those early Bits only functioned in space, making use of directional thrusters; the didn't have to fly.

Theoretically, a frame could be equipped with one or two wired Bits and operate them in a space combat scenario, but the amount of concentration/calculation this type of attack would demand of the pilot and her systems would be phenomenal-- like flying two remote control airplanes (while accounting for low visibility and a frictionless zero G environment) while SIMULTANEOUSLY piloting a frame under the those same conditions. This operation might be slightly easier in atmosphere, but more demanding power-wise, and would still require extreme levels of multitasking. Even if you factor in primitive AI, it seems like this is just one big overly complex solution that could be solved easier and cheaper by a bunch of missiles.


All totally true, I was just thinking more from the technological point, and was thinking more about ground battles, since most of the pics of battlefields I've seen have been land based.