Question about hydraulics.

[reese342]

As the title says, this is a question about hydraulics in the SC. Have they been comepletely and utterly replaced by muscle cylinders, or do they persist in some applications? Would basic construction equipment (such as an excavator or bulldozer) use muscle cylinders for running the boom and/or blade?

[Xero010]

I feel like muscle cylinders would be exclusive to frames just because of the much wider range of uses they have. Rather than lifting something up or down, the cylinders let a frame perform multiple tasks. It's also a matter of how easily the muscle cylinders can be produced and acquired in comparison to hydraulic equipment. This is just speculation based on what it says in the rule book though, sorry if this doesn't answer your question too well.

[Soren]

This is one of those questions where we didn't say, so feel free to make up whatever situational answer you need. I will post my guesses below.

It probably depends on expense; I could see hydraulics in a lot of niche, low-power applications (or applications where the operative concept is 'you're a small colony without a lot of technical expertise'), but if you can afford it and deal with the safety risks, I don't see why you wouldn't you go for muscle cylinders. We've postulated that they're cheap and readily available enough, they're proven tech, etc.

[reese342]

So it's a matter of practicality? That makes sense, I mean, you wouldn't need muscle cylinders to say, lift and angle a snowplow, for example. Thanks guys!

[gusindor]

Keep in mind that in many places, labor frames have replaced modern vehicles, especially on less-developed colonies where their versatility and ability to walk over rough terrain are big advantages. Your snowplow would likely be a frame with a shovel.

Of course, if you want to use conventional vehicles in your builds or your fiction, nobody's gonna stop you. Same goes for hydraulics, or pretty much any technology. Heck, if you made something steam-powered, our likely response would be to come up with situations where steam power would be practical.

Welcome to the Hangar, by the way.

[Vitoria]

So, more advanced colonies would have more specialized vehicles and less labor frames per inhabitant?

[Atavism]

Frames can be a lot of things, too, though. A snow plow could be a conscript with a shovel, but it could also be some big quad thing like a Plustech Timberjack with a hydraulic snow plow on the front.

I'd assume a crummy mining outpost would require a lot of hitching rides on work frames relevant to mining, but more advanced colonies would have a variety of frames for specific tasks mixed with non frame vehicles depending on flavor. Things like bulldozers and snow plows would/could/should be frames but a car would just be a car or speeder-vehicle unless it was for someone particularly important or ostentatious, for example.

[Xero010]

So essentially, the variety of frames you see posted in the forge are comparable to the number of designs you'd see within the SC universe, which is one of the reasons I love this game and setting so much.

[reese342]

Thanks for all the welcomes guys!

My impression (headcanon if you prefer) has always been that frames are used for heavy industry, such as mining, construction or agriculture, (and also giant robot fights, yay!) and that more conventional vehicles are used for things such as transportation or hauling cargo and very niche applications, such as plowing snow. Seems a bit wasteful to have your giant death robot shovel snow or move trailers. Although I suppose if you're planning a colony from the ground up (and have the wulongs to support it) you'd just invest heavily in public transit and just use cheap dirt roads outside of the capital city.

I agree, one of the best things about this setting is that your fluff and frames can vary wildly based on personal preference and your colonys needs or conditions.

[CmdrRook]

"My snow-plow can't fight giant robots (efficiently), but my giant robot can plow snow AND fight giant robots. And move cargo. And build infrastructure. And entertain colonists. I would rather invest in a new giant robot than a new snow-plow," is the reasoning I think is being posited here, but any number of situations may make that less true or applicable in the lore. Hell, rebels in Syria have popularized the practice of retrofitting construction vehicles like lifts and excavators to be mobile artillery platforms. Resourceful people will do whatever they can with whatever they have. Hydraulics may be inferior to muscle cylinders in MF0, but your reasons for why one might use the latter instead of the former are plenty legitimate.

[reese342]

"My snow-plow can't fight giant robots (efficiently), but my giant robot can plow snow AND fight giant robots. And move cargo. And build infrastructure. And entertain colonists. I would rather invest in a new giant robot than a new snow-plow," is the reasoning I think is being posited here, but any number of situations may make that less true or applicable in the lore. Hell, rebels in Syria have popularized the practice of retrofitting construction vehicles like lifts and excavators to be mobile artillery platforms. Resourceful people will do whatever they can with whatever they have. Hydraulics may be inferior to muscle cylinders in MF0, but your reasons for why one might use the latter instead of the former are plenty legitimate.

I suppose the versatility of a frame trumps a single purpose vehicle, although I have never been able to see how frames would cary cargo better than a truck or train or plane. Also, yeah, the technicals people come up with are nuts. I've seen a 105 leFH (which is WWII vintage, and makes my inner wehraboo cry) on an Isuzu truck in a picture. I suppose converted labour frames are technicals in a sense. (Although in the case of the Conscript it's more a return to roots)

And who says a snowplow can't fight a giant robot? Give 'er some gas and aim for the legs.

[Vitoria]

I suppose the versatility of a frame trumps a single purpose vehicle...

Not always, there's a reason why Swiss Army Knives didn't make common tools obsolete, dedicated instruments and vehicles will always be more effective at their designated function.

There will always be a balance between versatility and effectiveness, I consider that most colonies have to a lot with very little so using labor frames is justified, but, lets say, on Earth, there's little reason to employ them when you have cheap dedicated alternatives around.

[gusindor]

I suppose the versatility of a frame trumps a single purpose vehicle, although I have never been able to see how frames would cary cargo better than a truck or train or plane.

Yeah, I imagine transportation would be the most common area to use vehicles instead of frames. Frames could carry stuff in their arms or as a backpack, but with large loads they'd probably have balance problems, much like a human with too many shopping bags. Besides, "carry stuff/people" is a broad enough role that a dedicated transport vehicle would usually be worth the cost.

You could build a frame-sized wheelbarrow, but if you're doing that you might as well stick an engine in it and call it a dump truck.

And who says a snowplow can't fight a giant robot? Give 'er some gas and aim for the legs.

Someone needs to build this.

[Atavism]

This discussion reminded me of this build, which nicely sums up my opinion on the matter. Frames are best at everything.

FutureCity Gomikoma by Galaktek, on Flickrurl]

[reese342]

This discussion reminded me of this build, which nicely sums up my opinion on the matter. Frames are best at everything.

FutureCity Gomikoma by Galaktek, on Flickrurl]

I love how this is picking up garbage cans while also being built partly out of them.

[davidstrife]

Heck, if you made something steam-powered, our likely response would be to come up with situations where steam power would be practical.

what if a colony ship landed on a liquid covered planet that had boiling hot (literally) summers? steam-power wouldn't just be practical, it would be required. also, if the planet was to say ( ) be host to a lighter then air rock, flying frames would most definitely come into play! (hint hint)

[gusindor]

Heck, if you made something steam-powered, our likely response would be to come up with situations where steam power would be practical.

what if a colony ship landed on a liquid covered planet that had boiling hot (literally) summers? steam-power wouldn't just be practical, it would be required. also, if the planet was to say ( ) be host to a lighter then air rock, flying frames would most definitely come into play! (hint hint)

I see where you're going with this. Keep going there!

[Red_Robot]

A necro is fine...

I've got a little bit of practical experience with hydraulics from my days of driving tractors and front end loaders, and a lot of farm equipment either runs off of hydraulics or PTO attachment. I think from a practical application aspect, there's not going to be a lot of difference between a hydraulic cylinder and a muscle cylinder. By basic design, both are going to be a sealed tube with a metal rod or piston that moves in and out of one or both ends. So I think a muscle cylinder is going to fulfill pretty much any application a hydraulic cylinder would have. Basically, the function of both of these things is to push and pull. The big difference would be, a muscle cylinder is a sealed unit that needs a plug for electricity. With hydraulics, you are going to need a couple hoses attaching to the cylinder, as well as a pump of sufficient strength and a reservoir of hydraulic fluid. There's more opportunities for things to break down in a hydraulic system. So even though muscle cylinders might be more expensive initially, the hydraulic system probably requires more upkeep and money over time. And then there is the magical property of muscle cylinder systems in that they develop reflexes. So using muscle cylinders for machines with repetitive tasks is also probably more advantageous over time than just using simple hydraulics.