Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

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Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby xTornOxysx » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:16 pm

It seems to be a long standing rule when it comes to fanfiction and anything else associated with this game that each side is able to be reasoned with. That when they get what they need or want, they have no further need to fight.

In addition, I would like to briefly reference the absolute ban on anything related to the antagonists of World War Two. Duly referenced... moving on.

My question is this. Is there any reason that Mobile Frame Zero could not be more... Grimdark? By the title I'm sure many of you reading this realise I'm talking about Warhammer 40k.

The Imperium of Man has been described as 'Fascist' many times, out-of-lore of course.

I love the War40k universe with all its diverse lore for the myriad cultures and species.

The problem is that many factions fight for the sake of fighting. Or for the sake of Pain itself. Or they are fighting wars of annihilation for various justifications.

I don't necessarily want to simply 'port' a few space marines or orks directly into a Frame bay and write about their exploits (although that'd probably be hilarious) I am just wondering though if I were to write about implacable foes whose differences simply cannot be resolved through diplomacy (for whatever reason) if anyone (primarily any of the creators) would be offended.
Do such stories have a place in this universe and setting?

(One final concern, I had no idea where to put this. Mods, move at your leisure, as you will, and thank you very much)
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Atavism » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:35 am

Having just typed out a big thing, I remembered there's a more detailed thread already. Hope it helps, though I think the answer is basically "not really." (Also you'll have to read around a lot of copyright stuff as it goes along, the first page or so is the most helpful and the rest of the pertinent info is scattered around.)
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby zeekhotep » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:36 am

Well this is my take on the subject. Joshua put those rules in place for when people want to publish material under the heading of MFZ. If all you are doing is posting fan fiction to a fan forum those rules don't apply. The rules of the forum do still apply. On the forum the rule is "be nice." We do however tend to keep Joshuas rules in mind as we conduct ourselves here. I made reference to 40k in a tongue in cheek fashion when I posted about my "Ultra Fist" marines.
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So what I am saying is, I think as long as you keep the story "clean" enough that no parent will get upset about a preteen reading it you should be good.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby xTornOxysx » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:45 am

My thinking behind this is that people aren't always so rational as Joshua seems to describe everyone in his universe. Making, in my own personal opinion, 40k more politically believable.
Don't get me wrong please, I in no way want to belittle anyone, this is all opinions here.
Frankly, I wish I lived in Joshua's universe and not just because giant robots are a thing. I wish all these people on the highways who cut me off, I wish all these people who work at the DMV, I wish all those jerks I went to school with were so rational that they'd calm down enough to realize they don't need to be such a-holes, like all the people in this universe.

I probably won't write anything at this point. No hard feelings. :) Love playing the game, and thanks for the help guys.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Atavism » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:29 pm

xTornOxysx wrote:My thinking behind this is that people aren't always so rational as Joshua seems to describe everyone in his universe. Making, in my own personal opinion, 40k more politically believable.


I disagree. Most real life conflicts are driven, at least initially, by conflicts over material resources. Even when they are superficially about "THOSE people are EVIL," "THEIR religion is BAD," conflicts, they are usually driven in actuality by poor economics, hunger, control of land or resources, and political marginalization. The fracture point when it tips to violence tends to be ethnic/cultural divides because humans are often terrible, and conflicts become about ideals and bigotry rather than material goals, but they are continually driven by material problems at their heart. Even today I think people tend to be ignorant of their enemies' actual goals. Terrorists don't just want to kill people or destroy The West, North Korea isn't just a playground of madmen desperate to stay in power, Russia isn't just a country of jerks stretching Putin's massive balls ever Westward. That doesn't mean anyone should accede to their means and goals as legitimate or acceptable, nor does it mean that there is some golden treaty that would satisfy everyone, it just means that there is some actual goal with an estimable value to the parties involved. Reducing these conflicts to battles of Ideas makes them impossible to rationally discuss and misinforms our response when we try to fix them.

For counter-example, Anime is pretty terrible at this. How often does a show's Big Bad give a dissertation on some high-concept ideal of evolution or power or worth and can only truly plumb their philosophical depths by fighting, and then is shocked when the hero defeats them because the real answer was caring about people or some dreck. There's no negotiating with them because they're motivation is totally detached from the real world the same way "Blood for the Blood God" or "Waaaagh" are.

I think Joshua's vision doesn't preclude the idea that individual characters or groups could be driven by fanaticism or raw hate due to generations at war, he just expects that they be capable of getting sick of it/discovering the cost of war isn't worth it/being sued for peace or otherwise negotiating a settlement. Nor does he want scenarios where "war is great and necessary" is the message. Nor is he advocating some utopian ideal like early Star Trek TNG, where the Enterprise crew was literally not allowed to have interpersonal conflict because Gene Roddenberry wanted humans to have evolved past that crap.

Instead Joshua's vision is a realistic one. Columbia reaches a deal with FARC, for example. It's possible because there is a real world solution to their problems. A LOT of people hate the deal. The deal came after decades of miserable fighting. It could possibly fall apart. It is very easy to imagine a grim and violent tale set in this backdrop without erasing the fact that, in the end, negotiations were possible.

40k only makes sense because there are "monster" races such as Tyranids that can't be reasoned with and only seek to consume everything. Humanity writ large has its back to the wall because Orks live to fight, basically get spring fever for shooting, and literally spread like mushrooms; Chaos is just stupidly evil for the sake of evil, as are Dark Eldar and probably at least one race I'm forgetting; Necrons are just techno-zombies that kill everyone because they woke up. The only race that really "make sense" politically are the Tau, and they're really out of place in the rest of the scheme.

All of this provides an excuse for how backwards and awful the Imperial faction is, and it isn't realistic or sensible without it. Humanity is on the brink of destruction and making war is ennobling and good. Inquisitors have absolute authority because they find actual daemons that can eat the world because someone living there thought really impure thoughts enough. Half the races are morally A-OK to shoot as many as you can because, individually, they aren't really people anyway. Even if we recoil in horror at what the Imperium does, we allow it under the auspices of necessity and certainty that their situation requires it. That was fine for GW, they're just porting generally problematic fantasy tropes to a world of spaceships and laser beams, but Joshua has a more nuanced social vision that expects better under its banner.

Finally, yes, there have been real world takes where you have monstrous enemies that need to be killed with fighting. There's a reason why Nazis are so often the villains of movies and video games, and it goes beyond the historical drama of WW2. They're convenient because they are the real world orks and zombies, they're the real world guys that are so provably evil that we can all feel good and shoot them conscience-clear. Putting someone in a great-looking black uniform is the real-world version of a stormtrooper mask or a heap of ugly latex. And while they were real and military force was the only option in the end, I think it's wrong to look back at them and say "look how Good that war was," "look at how Just those killings were." It still sucked for everybody. Their deaths were still tragedies. Telling stories that forget that cause us to forget that the next war will suck too, the next deaths will still be tragedies. All Joshua is asking you to do, now that you get to pick the story you tell, you get to make the world they live in, now that you are choosing the paths that lead to a 'realistic' political outcome, is to choose not to pick the ones that lead to The War is Good and Necessary when you use the MFZ banner.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Shades_Corvid » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:43 pm

Wow, Atavism just said everything I wanted today but much better.

All I will add is you can still have small extremist sub groups or grimdark stories within Joshua's limitations.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby zeekhotep » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:59 pm

xTornOxysx wrote:I probably won't write anything at this point. No hard feelings. :) Love playing the game, and thanks for the help guys.


I'm sorry to hear that. My post was intended to encourage you to write. Most of the 40k books I have read are "clean" enough for preteens, and in fact are read by many. Most parents worry about sexual content over violence and politics.

I was looking forward to reading what you posted.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby VitorFaria » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:26 pm

Shades_Corvid wrote:Wow, Atavism just said everything I wanted today but much better.


I second this.

But there's one extra thing that I want to point out:

Not everyone enjoys 40k stuff. I myself really dislike it, in fact, I dislike it a lot. Not sure if my reasons for this are under scope of this tread, but the point is that I don't like it.

We're not an oppressed community that would love to write 40k stuff given the chance but have Joshua stopping us.

A bunch of us stay here because MF0 is not just another Warhammer clone.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby xTornOxysx » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:28 pm

Alright, I think I can get behind the basic idea of what Atavism is saying. (I'd quote you, but I couldn't chose what to include)
I think the place I was planning to take the story was not in keeping with the general flavor, but I've had another story idea kicking around inside awhile, and this might just be a decent universe to let it call home.

So I never really figured an entire culture or nation could possibly be evil. The first nation the Nazi's took over was Germany. Every side has civilians who really could not care who's in charge as long as the tax on their prize-winning peaches doesn't go up again. But what about individual evil. Maybe not even evil, but misguided or confused sense of justice that twists a person into something truly ugly, but not all at once. One of those 'he meant well' moments. Where this whole time he just won't let something go and finally you reluctantly raise your rifle... and no one cheers after he's gone. We're all just a bit more tired.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Roland the Barbarian » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:32 pm

I think the most important rule, as said earlier, is that the story should be acceptable for preteens to read. The universe of MF0, I think, is rather 'noblebright' for this reason.

If you want gruesome conflict where neither side is willing to yield an inch, look no further than real life. I know plenty of people who consider certain ideologies or values incompatible with theirs to the point they consider anything short of annihilation insufficient. In each of those cases, the opposing side some has similarly unrelenting people. Pit those against each other and nastiness ensues. Plenty of people will fight for plenty of reasons, far from all of which are rational and reasonable.

The point is, you could. But why would you? The setting has a rather unique light-hearted yet serious approach to spacefaring science-fiction. I'm afraid 40k-ing MF0 would simply make it grimdark for grimdark's sake. After all, existing factions already have plenty of precedent for making rational yet empathic decisions, and you'd have to write something in keeping with established lore.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Shades_Corvid » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:06 pm

Is Joshua trying to see a future that is perhaps better than our own in hopes to make that future true, yeah sure but he still leaves a lot open to 1) make it realistic 2) gritty and 3) grim if you want those in a story or Calendar/Setting with the following:

MF0: RA pg 216 wrote:No one is destined for greatness or
humility any more than any other, even
if their circumstances are ennobling or
humbling; their greatness or humility is the
result of the actions of people — either their
own or someone else’s.

Please note that characters may, in
fact, believe something contrary to
the actual nature of the universe. I
encourage you to create characters and
setting with complex relationship to the
reality of their situation.


and this ensures conflict

MF0: RA pg 216 wrote:Design your setting in such a way
that the signature elements of feudal,
authoritarian, totalitarian, communist,
corporate/anarcho-capitalist, or
democidal political structures that
are not true, workable, or morally
acceptable in the real world are
equally untrue, unworkable, and
unacceptable in your setting.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby xTornOxysx » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:39 am

Is there a place other than the official rule books that I could read some canon lore?
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby VitorFaria » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:14 am

xTornOxysx wrote:Is there a place other than the official rule books that I could read some canon lore?


I figure that whatever Joshua and Soren have said in this sub-forum counts as canon.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby spacemonkey » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:49 am

VitorFaria wrote:
Shades_Corvid wrote:Wow, Atavism just said everything I wanted today but much better.

I second this.
...
A bunch of us stay here because MF0 is not just another Warhammer clone.

+1

xTornOxysx wrote:Is there a place other than the official rule books that I could read some canon lore?

You could check out the wiki; a lot of the canon that Joshua, Soren, and few others have posted on the forums has been gathered there along with some from the book(s).
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby xTornOxysx » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:21 pm

I was looking over there and didn't see anything new. I'll check again.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Shades_Corvid » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:42 pm

xTornOxysx wrote:Is there a place other than the official rule books that I could read some canon lore?


Joshua is hoping to do a MF0 blog one day.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby Foghammer » Wed May 10, 2017 10:10 am

[/casts Raise Thread]

As a huge fan of StarCraft, it took me some time to wrap my head around this idea, and I probably still haven't yet, though I really wish I did. I just don't have the intelligence and mindfulness for it because I was raised on action stories exactly like what Atavism described (anime is so good and so bad; Gundam can be hard to watch now that I'm older and care about more than explosions).

That said, I remember making a similar thread years ago where Joshua basically said that you can have a Zerg knockoff/clone, but they have to stand for something that is reasonable. If you want to have a super-powered alien race that seems hellbent on eradicating humanity, they are probably just protecting some universe-ending technology that they are certain humans will put to ill-use, but humans (being the irrational creatures that we are) insist on expanding into their territory anyway with force (we all know that's how humans do things; we are the real space orcs). They won't tell us why because knowing what they're protecting is only going to make someone fight harder to get to it, but they also aren't willing to sit idle while we stumble across it either. So they exterminate any would-be settlers coming in, war ignites, etc etc.

Hopefully I'm getting closer to the mark here than I was back then. It's a very real and relevant stance that Josh and the others take on their approach to story.
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Re: Mobile War Frame Hammer 40,235

Postby VitorFaria » Wed May 10, 2017 11:37 am

Foghammer wrote:[/casts Raise Thread]

As a huge fan of StarCraft, it took me some time to wrap my head around this idea, and I probably still haven't yet, though I really wish I did. I just don't have the intelligence and mindfulness for it because I was raised on action stories exactly like what Atavism described (anime is so good and so bad; Gundam can be hard to watch now that I'm older and care about more than explosions).


Agreed. The latest Gundam series was fairly good at avoiding those issues, thou. If you haven't give it a watch.

Foghammer wrote:That said, I remember making a similar thread years ago where Joshua basically said that you can have a Zerg knockoff/clone, but they have to stand for something that is reasonable. If you want to have a super-powered alien race that seems hellbent on eradicating humanity, they are probably just protecting some universe-ending technology that they are certain humans will put to ill-use, but humans (being the irrational creatures that we are) insist on expanding into their territory anyway with force (we all know that's how humans do things; we are the real space orcs). They won't tell us why because knowing what they're protecting is only going to make someone fight harder to get to it, but they also aren't willing to sit idle while we stumble across it either. So they exterminate any would-be settlers coming in, war ignites, etc etc.

Hopefully I'm getting closer to the mark here than I was back then. It's a very real and relevant stance that Josh and the others take on their approach to story.


That seems like some great fanfic material. Atavism seemed to try something similar with his "Unity" stuff.
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