Mobile Frame Zero: Intercept Orbit.

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Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:28 pm

schoon wrote:OK, from your r post above, I'm clearly missing something about how ships turn.

I was interpreting "one click" as one click on the hinge of a hinge brick - which would mean that base size would not matter. What am I missing here?

...and I'd be happy to experiment with the 1/2TA concept and see how it works in terms of play.


Different widths of base will produce different kinds of turn. So if the base is 4 dots wide, it's closer to turning in place than if it's 8 dots wide. They effectively turn at a different radius of a circle.
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Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:33 pm

schoon wrote:I prepping for a weekend playtest of AB, and have a few questions:

  • Is there a movement benefit for having no "M" or "L" range weapons, similar to MF0?


Nope. You get that by having three systems, instead. The bonus is to your maneuverability, which is very similar in effect, but makes more sense in this context.

  • Is there additional benefit, beyond the single extra d6, for more Frame Catapults? If a ship had 4 Frame Catapults, would it get one or two bonus dice?


  • You can still only have two of any particular sort of system.

  • Each click of a hinge piece is 22.5 degrees; the way I see movement is to allign the ruler with the forward edge of the base, click any segment of the ruler one click per maneuver pip, and then align the forward edge of the base with the last segment of the ruler; you can have any base size you want, and it doesn't affect turning...


  • Since we haven't discussed this part much, I understand the confusion. You actually measure from the center of the base. A wider base means that you turn in a wider radius.

  • It is implied in the Ace rules that frames companies cannot move through other frame companies; is there some guideline for the size of a frame company base, as bigger would seem to be better...


  • Yes. I believe it's 4x4. We're still narrowing down this spec. Keep in mind, of course, just like in :RA, being bigger has some advantages, but also has disadvantages. Specifically, you can block others, but you're also easier to hit because you stick out all over the place.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:33 am

    Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:Different widths of base will produce different kinds of turn. So if the base is 4 dots wide, it's closer to turning in place than if it's 8 dots wide. They effectively turn at a different radius of a circle.

    OK - this makes more sense now, so let me take another swing and see if I'm getting it...

    If I rotate a 4-stud wide base 1-stud of turn, that's quite different than a 6- or 8-stud wide base using 1-stud of turn (I'm still not 100% on what 1-stud of turn is, but that's not critical at the moment).

    So can one, with a roll of 4 and speed of 3, move forward two units, turn 2 studs, move forward the last unit and then turn 2 more studs?
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:51 pm

    It's a click of a click hinge. You measure against the back of the base — that is, it rotates in the middle.

    So can one, with a roll of 4 and speed of 3, move forward two units, turn 2 studs, move forward the last unit and then turn 2 more studs?


    Frigates turn up to 2 clicks at a time. Carriers and cruisers (not sure if the last distinction is necessary anymore) turn one click at a time. So, to describe your above move:

    A frigate has a maneuver roll of 4. Its starting speed, as always, is 3.

    It moves forward 2 of its 3. That's free.
    It turns two clicks. For a frigate, that costs 1 maneuver. A cruiser or carrier can't turn two clicks at once. They have to move again before clicking.
    It moves forward the last 1 of its 3. That's free.
    It turns two clicks. That costs 1 maneuver.
    It can stop here, leaving the last 2 maneuvers unspent.

    If this is a cruiser or carrier, you'd probably want to spend those maneuvers on moving 1 (1/3), turning 1 (1/4), moving 1 (2/3), turning 1 (2/4), moving 1 (3/3), turning 1 (3/4), then using the last maneuver at your discretion. Because of the wider base and less clicking, it'll be further outside of the turning radius of a frigate in the same situation.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:20 am

    Thanks for that - I'm clear now!
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby grafvonbarnez » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:34 pm

    At first glance the rules seemed a little complicated for an MFZ game, but upon digestion I think I've fallen in love with them. I'm gearing up for some plays this week so I can see how they pan out in play.

    That said, I have a few questions on rules I might be hazy on:

    - When you launch frames, you can launch them to any target not in cover? Does this include the ship launching them, if you want the for more local work/cover purposes, say?

    - If a ship has two catapults, does it carry two companies, or just get 2 black dice? If it gets two companies how many can it launch per turn? (I assume 1)

    - If a frame company leaves a target it is attached to, can it move to and attach to another ship? I don't think I see any rules for becoming attached to ships without being launched at them. Is that intentional or does just moving the company into contact with the target let you attach?

    - Can ships that have been boarded and captured can be controlled as if they were your own? Also you only retain possession of a ship for as long as you have a company on it, but does this apply to HVAs or do they work just like stations in :RA? I can sort of see both ways, but that would make capturing them with ships wonky.

    - Can HVAs be attacked or destroyed? They have dice unlike stations, but that seems like it would lead to a lot of shooting defenseless civilian targets. And even if just blowing up civilian shipping a la WWI U-boat attacks could make sense in space-war, that doesn't seem in style.

    - Frame companies count as tactical assets, but don't score points? So in a two player game, if I bring say, 4 fully-loaded cruisers, and four frame companies, and my opponent brings 1 cruiser and 4 frigates, and 2 frame companies, I start with 4ppa (5, -1 for having more tactical assets, nothing as we each have 16 ship systems), and 28 points (4 ships and 3 HVAs x4ppa) and he has 6ppa and 48 points?

    - Does a ship start at 3 movement every turn? Or does it retain its "momentum" (which then has to be tracked) between rounds?

    - If a ship leaves the battlefield, is it out of play/counts as destroyed? I think that's a rule in :RA (but it never really made sense since there's no forced movement) Also, I'm completely in love with the movement rules. I remember reading vector-movement rules on Vincent Baker's blog years ago and this seems like a much-improved version.

    Anyway, thanks! I cannot wait to test-run this!
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:19 pm

    I'm not official, but I think I can cover a few of these (using the RAW):

    grafvonbarnez wrote:When you launch frames, you can launch them to any target not in cover? Does this include the ship launching them, if you want the for more local work/cover purposes, say?

    I'd say that your ship is not in cover from itself, so can launch your own frame company into a position that would cover your ship.

    grafvonbarnez wrote:If a ship has two catapults, does it carry two companies, or just get 2 black dice? If it gets two companies how many can it launch per turn? (I assume 1)

    The rules do state that "You get one company per catapult" and both the frame and the ship (no matter how many launchers on the ship) all count as a Tactical Assets. Thus a carrier with two frame launchers (filled with frames) would count as 3 TA. For launching, the rules say "roll one black die for each catapult" so I would say that you could launch all your frames if you were willing to go with those endurance rolls. (NOTE: a carrier with two frame launchers gets an additional black die to roll for endurance.)

    grafvonbarnez wrote:If a frame company leaves a target it is attached to, can it move to and attach to another ship? I don't think I see any rules for becoming attached to ships without being launched at them. Is that intentional or does just moving the company into contact with the target let you attach?

    I can see this as going either way, and will have to defer to Joshua on this one... However, on a personal note, that could make for some interesting tactics for activation sequences to leapfrog your frames on two ships (moving with ship 1, then taking the frame's movement to get to ship 2, and then moving with ship 2)!

    grafvonbarnez wrote:Can ships that have been boarded and captured can be controlled as if they were your own? Also you only retain possession of a ship for as long as you have a company on it, but does this apply to HVAs or do they work just like stations in :RA? I can sort of see both ways, but that would make capturing them with ships wonky.

    Again, only Joshua can know his intent on this one, but it would seem to me that taking control of a captured asset would be unbalancing.

    grafvonbarnez wrote:Can HVAs be attacked or destroyed? They have dice unlike stations, but that seems like it would lead to a lot of shooting defenseless civilian targets. And even if just blowing up civilian shipping a la WWI U-boat attacks could make sense in space-war, that doesn't seem in style.

    Using the MF0:RA rules as a guide on this one: HVAs would act like stations, and would not be destroyed.

    grafvonbarnez wrote:Frame companies count as tactical assets, but don't score points? So in a two player game, if I bring say, 4 fully-loaded cruisers, and four frame companies, and my opponent brings 1 cruiser and 4 frigates, and 2 frame companies, I start with 4ppa (5, -1 for having more tactical assets, nothing as we each have 16 ship systems), and 28 points (4 ships and 3 HVAs x4ppa) and he has 6ppa and 48 points?

    Any tactical asset counts for points, including frame companies, which can be captured just like ships (Word to the wise - don't be on a captured ship when your frame's endurance runs out!)

    grafvonbarnez wrote:Does a ship start at 3 movement every turn? Or does it retain its "momentum" (which then has to be tracked) between rounds?

    They retain momentum.

    grafvonbarnez wrote:If a ship leaves the battlefield, is it out of play/counts as destroyed? I think that's a rule in :RA (but it never really made sense since there's no forced movement) Also, I'm completely in love with the movement rules. I remember reading vector-movement rules on Vincent Baker's blog years ago and this seems like a much-improved version.

    Another Joshua question. My guess would be that it would be out of play and simply no longer count for that player's score.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:43 pm

    OK, since I was unclear on this at the start, I thought a picture might be worth a 1000 words on a movement example:

    A Frigate (because it was easier to do quickly in MLCAD) is moving at speed 5 (from last turn).

    During its activation, it rolls a 5 on d6G

    It uses one point to accelerate to speed 6, and then makes the following turns:

    Image

    Each turn is 2 clicks on the ruler due to having 3 systems (as opposed to 4), and no more than 2 clicks (1 click for 4-system ships) can be applied to any one "joint."

    Thus, it starts aligned with the red part of the ruler and moves out 6 segments to finish as shown above.

    Cool!
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby grafvonbarnez » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:24 pm

    Thanks a lot!

    schoon wrote:I'd say that your ship is not in cover from itself, so can launch your own frame company into a position that would cover your ship.

    That's what I figured, but it isn't really stated clearly. I'm guessing "an unoccupied region of space" also counts as not in cover if you wanted to launch them to a certain point on the table too?

    schoon wrote:The rules do state that "You get one company per catapult" and both the frame and the ship (no matter how many launchers on the ship) all count as a Tactical Assets. Thus a carrier with two frame launchers (filled with frames) would count as 3 TA. For launching, the rules say "roll one black die for each catapult" so I would say that you could launch all your frames if you were willing to go with those endurance rolls. (NOTE: a carrier with two frame launchers gets an additional black die to roll for endurance.)

    Thanks, I seem to have missed that blurb in the rules, but it makes sense. Launching both of them on the same turn is a departure from the usual :RA model of only being able to take one action with each of your sets of dice regardless of the number of dice or systems, so it seemed good to ask for clarification.

    schoon wrote:I can see this as going either way, and will have to defer to Joshua on this one... However, on a personal note, that could make for some interesting tactics for activation sequences to leapfrog your frames on two ships (moving with ship 1, then taking the frame's movement to get to ship 2, and then moving with ship 2)!

    There seems to be an unstated assumption in the rules that frames can attach to targets they weren't launched at, at least friendly targets. It doesn't seem like Landing would actually work if it wasn't possible. I can definitely see some movement/activation weirdness going on if that's the case though. Maybe it's an end of turn thing?

    schoon wrote:Again, only Joshua can know his intent on this one, but it would seem to me that taking control of a captured asset would be unbalancing.

    I'd agree, but one of Joshua's posts in this thread seems to imply that you can. It might just be me reading into it too much.
    Joshua A.C. Newman wrote: Attacking the ship you're trying to board. Your opponent isn't going to get rid of the parts you want them to get rid of. They're going to get rid of the parts that you want for yourself.

    "the parts you want for yourself" seems to imply you'll have a use for the parts on the ship? Why would you care what parts got lopped off if it was just going to be an occupied hulk until you leave/your opponent retakes it? And capturing a ship basically reduces both your and your opponent's assets, since your frames can't leave if you want to hold it.

    schoon wrote:Using the MF0:RA rules as a guide on this one: HVAs would act like stations, and would not be destroyed.

    That's what I thought, thanks.

    schoon wrote:Any tactical asset counts for points, including frame companies, which can be captured just like ships (Word to the wise - don't be on a captured ship when your frame's endurance runs out!)

    Hmm, I think the rules directly contradict you. They say, "Mobile frame companies are fast, flexible, and maneuverable, but fragile. Only they can capture and defend enemy ships. They neither grant nor cost points." (emphasis mine). And later, "» Score = PPA x (Ships + HVAs)". Is that an artifact of a previous version? It feels weird enough that I had to ask about it.

    schoon wrote:They retain momentum.

    Finally a use for my 12mm green dice!

    schoon wrote:Another Joshua question. My guess would be that it would be out of play and simply no longer count for that player's score.

    Fair enough. I swear there was a rule about leaving the battlefield in :RA but for the life of me I can't find it.

    One final question though, any word on base sizes? I read 4x4 for frame companies, but nothing on cruisers/frigates.

    Thanks again!
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:36 pm

    grafvonbarnez wrote:Hmm, I think the rules directly contradict you. They say, "Mobile frame companies are fast, flexible, and maneuverable, but fragile. Only they can capture and defend enemy ships. They neither grant nor cost points." (emphasis mine). And later, "» Score = PPA x (Ships + HVAs)". Is that an artifact of a previous version? It feels weird enough that I had to ask about it.


    Wow, not sure how I missed that one staring me in the face! :oops:

    I'll formulate a more complete reply later this evening.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:51 pm

    Yeah, companies are expendable, points-wise. But they're tactically extremely important.

    They can definitely jump around to other ships. It's their primary function, in fact! They get normal moves, and if they're touching a ship, they can be attached if they want to.

    You gain control of a ship you've captured. Of course it's unbalancing. We call that kind of unbalance "winning". Unbalance is only a problem if it leads to a single best strategy. In this case, the best strategies all include, "Have robots to take stuff." That's a kind of behavior we like to encourage.

    HVAs do not revert to their original owners. They're like stations, but not stationary, so we can't call them stations.

    It definitely makes sense to launch companies right beside yourself. They're your interceptors. You can also launch them at other frame companies.

    You can't launch to an unoccupied point in space; furthermore, it's never a good idea (which is why it's against the rules. If there's room for an advanced rules section, I might include this, as well as a "conserved momentum" rule).

    Frame companies can only be captured if they're out of fuel. It's just a way to make sure your opponent doesn't get them back, at least not without mounting a rescue.

    Ships move really slowly and clumsily. That's one of the reasons frames are so important. So if a frigate has a meanuever of 5, and has a forward movement of 3. It does NOT retain momentum. The 3 represents that forward momentum.

    Each point of maneuver can be use to:
    • go forward further by 1
    • slow down by 1 (to a minimum of 0)
    • click one knuckle the ruler by one (any ship) or two (frigates only)

    So maybe this is their move:

    Code: Select all
    — —
       \_ _/
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:42 pm

    Thank-you for your continuing support in figuring out the rules, Joshua! Your input is really helping put things in place.

    A few more questions:
    • Is there a maximum range to which frames can be launched, or is it ANY out of cover asset on the table, regardless of range?
    • Could frames be launched at terrain? (They rules do not currently allow for this, but I was just wondering from a tactics perspective...
    • Attached frames would appear to need to be on a certain "side" of a ship to provide cover. How many sides does a ship have (2 - port/starboard; 4 - fore/aft/port/starboard; or something else)?
    • So a carrier with two frame catapults would count as 3 Tactical Assets, but only the carrier would be counted for points score - do I have that right?

    ...and one example to see if I'm doing things right:

    Two players, Nate and Eric, are setting up for a game.

    Nate brings 2 Carriers (4 systems each, 2 of which are frame launchers) at 3 TA each (1 for the carrier and 2 for the frame companies), and a frigate (3 systems and no frame companies) for a total of 7 TAs and 11 systems.

    Eric brings a force of 4 Cruisers (4 systems each, 1 of which is a frame launcher) at 2 TA each (1 for the cruiser and 1 for the frame company) for a total of 8 TAs and 16 systems.

    Each has 3 HVAs.

    Eric has most TAs and most systems, so he's at 3 points per asset, and Nate has fewest for 7 points per asset.

    Since frame companies don't count for points, Nate starts with a score of (6*7=42) and is the Defender. Eric starts with (7*3=21) and is Point Offence.

    How am I doing so far?
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby grafvonbarnez » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:51 am

    I finally got a few playtest games in yesterday. They went fairly smoothly, but a question came up.

    Captured ships revert to their original owner "immediately" when they're no longer occupied by a frame company. What if that happens during their activation?
    The circumstance that arose during play was that one of my frigates had been captured by my opponent, whose frame company had only one turn of fuel left. The captured frigate was within an easy 3-4 range of one of his frigates, and also near a second of my frigates. He activated the captured frigate, gave it a 5 to maneuver, then drove it directly into my second frigate at full speed, trashing both of them. However, when the captured frigate moved, he had the occupying frame company choose not to move with them, to keep them within landing range of his carrier. Should the frigate have completed its fiery charge? Or is it back under my control as soon as it left the frames behind? I figured that mid-turn control swapping is awful enough for it to just happen at the end of the ships activation. Plus I was a little too slack-jawed at the time to have actually tried to argue about it.

    Also, frames are completely devastating. The first battle was almost even, in terms of starting fleets. We both had a carrier, a cruiser, and two frigates, but one of my frigates had a catapult on it. just having one more company available than him was a huge factor in me completely rolling him the first game. Maybe it's just the first couple games and I'm missing something important, but frames don't feel even a little bit "fragile". They've got as much HP as cruisers, only take hits at short range, and can go anywhere. Just my 2 cents.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:38 pm

    Ugh. I can't believe I just lost the long, detailed post I did. Hutch in pants.

    In short:

    Frames are devastating, yes, but now feed into your score. Count them in your score as you would a ship or HVA.

    Frigates now get a green d6 for free. It's not a system.

    In your friends' case, which is an awesome move, btw, the value of your dice stand, whatever else may have happened. However, that's an interesting question! It's like when your frame gets hit and killed, so you don't use the rest of your dice. I'll add to my notes: if you move a ship out from under the controlling frames, you gotta ride it down, son. I don't think it does any damage, just because it's too complex to figure out who would take the hits, and frames can dodge just fine, compared to a ship.

    Some more fun new rules:

    Ship capture/defense now happens on a 3+ for each frame company hangin' on. That means that, if you don't have a defending frame, a single company has a 2/3 chance of taking it. Defended, it's still to the benefit of the defender, since it doesn't change hands on a tie.

    Did I say before that ships with two catapults roll three black dice, not two? They do.

    Repairs and relaunching now happen on the ship's turn. That means that a company with bingo fuel and bad damage will probably have to take a one-turn breather or make a hard decision about whether to fly out with low fuel or busted up equipment. It also means they can fight while getting repaired or refueled! Those frame support crews are amazing.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:22 pm

    Thank-you. That's what I need to start some furious playtesting.

    I'll post reports as after playing a few games.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby Xero010 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:07 am

    After lurking here on this part of the forum for awhile, and building a ship, I feel comfortable enough with the rules to ask a question
    1.) When a frame company is launched, is it launched directly at another ship/company, and their base plates touch?
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby schoon » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:52 pm

    Xero010 wrote:When a frame company is launched, is it launched directly at another ship/company, and their base plates touch?

    As written right now, frames launch and attach to any out of cover asset, so yes, they are launched at another ship, frame company, or HVA.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:44 pm

    As soon as the Kickstarter goes live, I'll get on an updated playtest document. There are rules that are only on an index card right now.
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby spacemonkey » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:52 pm

    Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:As soon as the Kickstarter goes live...

    Speaking of that, any sort of rough idea on when you hope to launch? :?:
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    Re: Mobile Frame Zero: Alpha Bandit

    Postby Zero Revenge » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:42 pm

    Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:As soon as the Kickstarter goes live, I'll get on an updated playtest document. There are rules that are only on an index card right now.

    Oh wow, this is the first i'm hearing of a Kickstarter for Alpha Bandit. Oooooo!
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