"Solving" Suzerain

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"Solving" Suzerain

Postby CmdrRook » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:22 am

While I'm certain none of us find fault in the core concept or design of the Ijad's second iconic frame, the knee joint has proven problematic for those who wish to brick one up. As Jay Biquadrate has pointed out in a prior thread, the "brick math" doesn't check out as per the official instructions, resulting in the uneven and unstable connection below.

Official instructions by Wordman, Rapid Attack Rulebook, pages 195, 196:
Image
Image

Knee connection in the brick:
Image

The connection between the clip plates and the modified bar plate interferes with the connection between the clip plates and the Travis brick. Unfortunately, a simple substitution of the bar plate seems unhelpful.
Image

And so we come to the purpose of this thread: can we, as a community, find a simple fix to this problem or brainstorm a redesign that preserves and honors the original concept of the Suzerain?

All participants are welcome to this challenge regardless of skill, experience, or self-esteem. If you want to contribute, make your voice heard!
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby VitorFaria » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:09 am

You could use a clip tile in front of the travis to connect to the middle of the bar and just use two 1x1 plates on the sides of the travis.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby mraichelson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:47 am

Not super hot on this idea (since it will leave a bit of exposed brick) but I'll see about bricking it up this afternoon to see how it really shakes out, but...

What about inverting the travis brick in the upper portion of the leg (so it's anti-stud up, and top-stud down) and using a tile clip to attach to the bottom portion of the leg?

Which, more or less just turns that upper portion of the leg into an upper portion of a scrambler leg and would need totally different plating/greebling. Hmm, not sure I actually like where that idea's headed.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby Jay Biquadrate » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:06 pm

I've taken a look at this in the brick since it was first brought up in the previous thread and I think there are actually two problems with this joint. The first is elaborated above. The second is that the center clip plate that covers the gap between the upper and lower leg really interferes with the movement of the legs because it bumps into the stud on the side of the travis brick.

Because the original joint design only uses two of the four travis side studs, the easiest fix is to employ a Modified 1 x 1 Brick with Studs on 2 Sides. the joint clips go on the "top" and "bottom" of the brick (eliminating the math problem), the clip tile goes on one side and the cheese/jumper goes on the other side.

The only problem with this solution is that it creates a visual asymmetry between the stud on one side of the leg and the anti-stud on the other. Other than the somewhat unsightly nature of the connection it preserves as much of the original design as possible.

(pictures will follow as necessary)
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby CmdrRook » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:35 pm

VitorFaria wrote:You could use a clip tile in front of the travis to connect to the middle of the bar and just use two 1x1 plates on the sides of the travis.


Only have my demo materials on me, so here's a parts-limited attempt.
Image
Image

I like it, but I need to tinker with the concept a bit more to eliminate the gap in the joint that the centralized clip plate usually fills and greebles. I also feel that it is no longer distinct enough from a ghanat leg, but these things are subjective... Great work, Vitor, but I'm not ready to call it case closed yet.

Edit: Let me be clear; I understated how much I love this shape, but that hole is rustling my jimmies.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby Jay Biquadrate » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:09 pm

CmdrRook wrote:
VitorFaria wrote:You could use a clip tile in front of the travis to connect to the middle of the bar and just use two 1x1 plates on the sides of the travis.

Great work, Vitor, but I'm not ready to call it case closed yet.
Edit: Let me be clear; I understated how much I love this shape, but that hole is rustling my jimmies.

You could point the hole away from the frame and put something over it. With a 1x1 round plate into the hole, you could cover the whole "knee" with a 2x2 boat plate. A 1x1 square plate and you could use a old-style 2x2 round tile (just like how the Osprey head is connected).

Edit: Looking back over your pics, and I don't think that a centered tile will cut it to close the gap, but you could use the boat plate or an inverted 2x2 tile attached by a single stud and then use any tile/grille/tooth to fill in the side gaps.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby Valtarshol » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:34 pm

Found a solution to both problems, and made it cheaper by removing the Travis brick entirely.

ImageSuzerain leg by Valtarshol Ceirn, on Flickr

It does result in this asymmetry, but since they're mirrored it shouldn't be a big issue. It also changes the stud for the jumper to an anti-stud, which I find more stable in general.

ImageSuzerain leg 2 by Valtarshol Ceirn, on Flickr

The complete assembly, aaaaand:

ImageSuzerain leg breakdown by Valtarshol Ceirn, on Flickr

The solution I came up with. It's just slightly wider than it should be, but can't slide off to one side or the other.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby Artasid » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:01 pm

I tried some experimenting myself, and I'm not sure how well these possible solutions are, but I figured I'd share and hopefully spread some ideas around.

I took the travis 5 peg brick and arranged it so that the hole portian was aiming towards the lower part of the leg. I apologize for the pics if they are not that good, but it's currently the best I was able to achieve.

Imagepossible fix 1
Imagepossible fix 1 build
Imagepossible fix 1 full
Imagepossible fix 2
Imagepossible fix 2 full

Hope these help.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby CmdrRook » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:14 pm

Valtarshol wrote:Found a solution to both problems, and made it cheaper by removing the Travis brick entirely.

It does result in this asymmetry, but since they're mirrored it shouldn't be a big issue. It also changes the stud for the jumper to an anti-stud, which I find more stable in general.

The solution I came up with. It's just slightely wider than it should be, but can't slide off to one side or the other.


If symmetry wasn't an obstacle, this joint would be solved simply by rotating the Travis 90 degrees so that the clip plates attached to the top and bottom of it. My unhealthy pursuit of symmetry is making this process more- read: needlessly- complicated. I love the elimination of the Travis, that's incredible.

I've currently got a substantial amount of the gap covered unless the knee is bent acutely, which is nearing my "good enough" threshold. Nevermind the contrast, the only jumpers and cheese slopes I have with me are dark red.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby addking » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:50 pm

The only thing I notice is that CmdrRook has an extra 1x1 plate under the travis in his pictures, which moves it out from the clip attaching to the body octagon just a touch more.

I think the double tooth/grill one looks better IMO, but the other leg version does cover more space.

Otherwise I think that's a fine solution if you can't stand the single solid or double loose connection in the book version. I have had one bricked up since the RA instructions went for testing to the forum.

My suggestion since we now have 1x1 rounds with holes in them.. (and board attachment quota overload...!) would be: 1x2 plate with 2 vertical clips (replacing the 1x2 plate bar with open ends) gripping a t-piece with a 1x1 round with hole in middle slid down the bar and just clicked into the open side of the travis. Might have to swap to tiles or some other side 'flair' on the travis. but would give you full joint until the t-bar/round wears down a bit.
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Re: "Solving" Suzerain

Postby CmdrRook » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:13 pm

Yeah, the extra 1x1 is a trick the scrambler uses to keep that particular orientation of the travis from colliding with the 3x3 radar excessively, but since the scrambler has a more horizontal posture and the Suzerain is more upright, I found it unneccessary in later prototyping.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the pneuma-t into modified 1x2 double clip plate, and could even see the T seating directly into one of the stud facings of the travis without the 1x1 round, with perhaps a clip tile greebling/filling out space.
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