Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 8 Posted)

Postby randolph » Tue May 29, 2012 4:08 pm

MittenNinja posted the question over in the pdf thread, so hopefully it will get an answer soon.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 8 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Thu May 31, 2012 11:20 pm

Battle Simulation 9

Orange Team (defense)
Sadar Regional Police Special Response Special Task Force
1x d6Rd d6Rd d8Rd d6Y d6B d6W d6W- d8Rr | URFF
2x d6Rd d6Rd d6Y d6G d6W d6W - d8Rr | Crab
2x d6Rh d6Rh d6Y d6B d6G d8G d6W d6W | Coconut Crab

Purple Team (attack)
31st OMU

Sgt. Decker's Sentinel d6B d6B d6Y d6Y d8G
Assault Meerkat d6Rd d6Rd d8Rd d6B d6G
Overwatch Meerkat d6Ra d6Rd d6Y d6Y d6G
Salvaged Chub d6Rd d6Rd d6Rd d6Rh d6B d6Y
2x Hatchet Brawlers d6Rh d6Rh d8Rh d6B d8G

Battle Setup
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Round 1 End
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Round 2 End
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Round 3 End
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Round 4 End
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Round 5 End
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Round 6 End
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This was an intense and brutal battle. The attackers only just won, by 3 initiative points! Extremely close, and this only happened in the last round.

One very valuable lesson from this particular sim is that you should never hide behind one of your own frames that doesn't have two blue if your defense roll is low, or you'll get both frames killed (see Round 2).

Also, as the defender, skipping your turn is not always a good way of bringing the attackers into range. Sometimes, it can put you at a great disadvantage to be attacked first.

As you can see in the pictures, a lot of cover got destroyed. This was an experiment in attempting to herd the enemy, and it worked to bring them out of cover (although at that point such an advantage was unusable).

It's also worth noting that the attackers were set up in such a way as to avoid ambush, and the defenders were set up in such a way as to deny as much of the battlefield from the attackers as possible.

I'll probably get another one or two sims done over this weekend as it's a long one (Monday off for me). Let me know what you think of this one.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby The Trilobite » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:36 am

Cool! Neat to see how this worked out. Looked like a pretty intense firefight, and frankly I'm happy with the results, largely because it was dramatic and hard-fought. I also think you did really well sticking to the strategy I outlined for police force. Neat!
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 8 Posted)

Postby Axhead » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:32 am

Thanks again for another awesome Sim. These really get the brain juices flowing.
Tetrajak wrote: Battle Simulation 9
This was an intense and brutal battle. The attackers only just won, by 3 initiative points! Extremely close, and this only happened in the last round.

These are the best kind of games, close and hard fought.


Tetrajak wrote: One very valuable lesson from this particular sim is that you should never hide behind one of your own frames that doesn't have two blue if your defense roll is low, or you'll get both frames killed (see Round 2).

Also, as the defender, skipping your turn is not always a good way of bringing the attackers into range. Sometimes, it can put you at a great disadvantage to be attacked first.

Excellent points. By skipping your go you essentially give up the initiative, which means the other guy now controls the fight... I think there are cases where I would pass when only a couple of my frames need to activate, but generally going sooner when shooting or HTHing will only let things go on your own terms.


Tetrajak wrote: As you can see in the pictures, a lot of cover got destroyed. This was an experiment in attempting to herd the enemy, and it worked to bring them out of cover (although at that point such an advantage was unusable).

This surprised me a bit. Since both sides had roughly equal fire power I would have thought the advantage would have gone to the side not shooting at cover (because it would be doing damage as well as destroying cover).


Tetrajak wrote: It's also worth noting that the attackers were set up in such a way as to avoid ambush, and the defenders were set up in such a way as to deny as much of the battlefield from the attackers as possible.

This is what surprised me the most, it looked like neither side got to use any HTH despite being significantly invested in it (33% & 40%). In the case of the coconut crabs (great name btw) they wound up being destroyed to minimal effect, if they had ambushed the Overwatch Meerkat or Sentinal or even the point frame it would have better for the cops. They would have pushed the fighting into enemy territory and caused harm instead of being targets.


Tetrajak wrote: I'll probably get another one or two sims done over this weekend as it's a long one (Monday off for me). Let me know what you think of this one.

Hooray!
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:49 pm

The Trilobite wrote:Cool! Neat to see how this worked out. Looked like a pretty intense firefight, and frankly I'm happy with the results, largely because it was dramatic and hard-fought. I also think you did really well sticking to the strategy I outlined for police force. Neat!

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the result. It was certainly an enjoyable sim for me to run :D

Axhead wrote:Thanks again for another awesome Sim. These really get the brain juices flowing.

You're most welcome!

Axhead wrote:
Tetrajak wrote: As you can see in the pictures, a lot of cover got destroyed. This was an experiment in attempting to herd the enemy, and it worked to bring them out of cover (although at that point such an advantage was unusable).

This surprised me a bit. Since both sides had roughly equal fire power I would have thought the advantage would have gone to the side not shooting at cover (because it would be doing damage as well as destroying cover).

It was the defense doing the cover destroying, and since they did very little damage to the attackers, I'd say you're right in your assessment that destroying cover instead of frames is not always a good investment. Then again, when you don't have a numerical advantage, nor much in the way of spotting, it's hard to justify engaging the enemy force when they're all bunched together.

Axhead wrote:
Tetrajak wrote: It's also worth noting that the attackers were set up in such a way as to avoid ambush, and the defenders were set up in such a way as to deny as much of the battlefield from the attackers as possible.

This is what surprised me the most, it looked like neither side got to use any HTH despite being significantly invested in it (33% & 40%). In the case of the coconut crabs (great name btw) they wound up being destroyed to minimal effect, if they had ambushed the Overwatch Meerkat or Sentinal or even the point frame it would have better for the cops. They would have pushed the fighting into enemy territory and caused harm instead of being targets.

If the defenders had attempted to set up an ambush of the attackers, the defenders would have been destroyed. Sure, they might have destroyed the Overwatch or the Sentinal, maybe, but it's unlikely as there were only 3 remaining frames to place, and they would have been outnumbered by the clustered attackers. It would have most likely resulted in the death of all of the ambushing frames by round 2.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby randolph » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:22 pm

In WT doctrine, the only time an attack is spent to destroy terrain is when it is imperative not to activate any of the enemy frames before landing the first Spot. Otherwise, shoot an inconsequential (or less relevant) frame, and Spot the real target.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Axhead » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:29 pm

Tetrajak wrote:If the defenders had attempted to set up an ambush of the attackers, the defenders would have been destroyed. Sure, they might have destroyed the Overwatch or the Sentinal, maybe, but it's unlikely as there were only 3 remaining frames to place, and they would have been outnumbered by the clustered attackers. It would have most likely resulted in the death of all of the ambushing frames by round 2.

Yeah but they all died anyway and did zero damage. Is no damage better than some damage when the end result is the same (your frame is destroyed)? I would say no.

I see only three real choices if you are a HTH frame pilot:
  1. Try to kill everyone on the other team.
  2. Run away and die tired.
  3. Realize 2. is bad deal and go with 1.

HTH frames are in it for the glory not the retirement package.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:57 pm

Axhead wrote:
Tetrajak wrote:If the defenders had attempted to set up an ambush of the attackers, the defenders would have been destroyed. Sure, they might have destroyed the Overwatch or the Sentinal, maybe, but it's unlikely as there were only 3 remaining frames to place, and they would have been outnumbered by the clustered attackers. It would have most likely resulted in the death of all of the ambushing frames by round 2.

Yeah but they all died anyway and did zero damage. Is no damage better than some damage when the end result is the same (your frame is destroyed)? I would say no.

I see only three real choices if you are a HTH frame pilot:
  1. Try to kill everyone on the other team.
  2. Run away and die tired.
  3. Realize 2. is bad deal and go with 1.

HTH frames are in it for the glory not the retirement package.

Playing defense is about surviving for as long as you can, turning the DDC down every turn you're winning, and inflicting hits of opportunity. 2 HtH frames is never enough to do any real damage with HtH. Sure, you can sacrifice them, but then you're sacrificing the initiative advantage; the very reason you're playing defense. Sacrificing both HtH frames in sim 9 would have resulted in 1 kill and maybe some damage to 1 or 2 other frames. More importantly, it would have lost the defense a total of 14 initiative, and the attackers, maybe, 6 initiative. But then, the attackers have 2 less frames to hunt, and the defense has 2 less frames to defend with. I'm not seeing any way that this is a smart trade.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby randolph » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:46 am

My suggestion to axhead: run the sim yourself, your way, see what happens.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Axhead » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:47 pm

@Tetrajak: If I come across as hostile or otherwise negative, that is definately not my intention. I really appreciate the effort you go through running these sims, and really enjoy the discussion and thought processes that they generate. I also understand that we all make in game tactical errors, I will be posting my 2nd Sim in the next day or so and I make some really bad mistakes in it. But that is a good thing because I learned stuff and by posting it other people can learn stuff too. Hopefully my Sims will generate conversation as well and then we can all learn more. Plus who doesn't enjoy reading battle reports?

Tetrajak wrote:Playing defense is about surviving for as long as you can, turning the DDC down every turn you're winning, and inflicting hits of opportunity. 2 HtH frames is never enough to do any real damage with HtH. Sure, you can sacrifice them, but then you're sacrificing the initiative advantage; the very reason you're playing defense. Sacrificing both HtH frames in sim 9 would have resulted in 1 kill and maybe some damage to 1 or 2 other frames. More importantly, it would have lost the defense a total of 14 initiative, and the attackers, maybe, 6 initiative. But then, the attackers have 2 less frames to hunt, and the defense has 2 less frames to defend with. I'm not seeing any way that this is a smart trade.

What I am trying to do in my ham handed way is look for a way that the defenders could have done better. I understand what you are saying about the Initiative, but by using that strategy they lost (admitedly just by a little bit but thats what makes this interesting to examine, it could have gone the other way).

From the look of it the on the end of turn 6 Cops had 1 frame & 2 stations @ 7 points per = 21 points (so they lost 4 frames). The 31st had 4 stations and 4 frames so they lost 2 frames. If the cops had lost the two Coconut Crabs by turn 2 they would have given up 14 Initiative (so 42 - 27) and still kept the initiative. If they had killed one key frame, say the Overwatch Meerkat the score would be 42 -24. In the resulting chase, how many points of damage did the Overwatch Meerkat cause via its d6Ra & d6Y d6Y ? I am guess a lot. This is also ignoring the possible other damage they could cause, augmented by fire from the rest of the cops who would spend the first two turns fairly unmolested as the 31st would be busy dealing with the Coconut Crabs. If they could have put a big dent in either the Sentinel or Salvaged chub, the 31st would have had its Scan (and thus killing) capabilities seriously diminished.

Its kind of like a present value of money concept where money now is worth more than the same amount later, because you can invest it at interest. So my idea is the present value of murder(tm), by killing bad guys early they have less turns to hurt you.

randolph wrote:My suggestion to axhead: run the sim yourself, your way, see what happens.

I already have a lot in the pipeline, so I probably wont have the time to do so. That being said I will be running into similar situations in the Sims I run, so we can see how they turn out.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:01 pm

Axhead wrote:@Tetrajak: If I come across as hostile or otherwise negative, that is definately not my intention. I really appreciate the effort you go through running these sims, and really enjoy the discussion and thought processes that they generate. I also understand that we all make in game tactical errors, I will be posting my 2nd Sim in the next day or so and I make some really bad mistakes in it. But that is a good thing because I learned stuff and by posting it other people can learn stuff too. Hopefully my Sims will generate conversation as well and then we can all learn more. Plus who doesn't enjoy reading battle reports?

Don't worry, you're not coming across as hostile. I understand the desire to analyse the battle sims that I post. After all, that's what they're for.

Axhead wrote:
Tetrajak wrote:Playing defense is about surviving for as long as you can, turning the DDC down every turn you're winning, and inflicting hits of opportunity. 2 HtH frames is never enough to do any real damage with HtH. Sure, you can sacrifice them, but then you're sacrificing the initiative advantage; the very reason you're playing defense. Sacrificing both HtH frames in sim 9 would have resulted in 1 kill and maybe some damage to 1 or 2 other frames. More importantly, it would have lost the defense a total of 14 initiative, and the attackers, maybe, 6 initiative. But then, the attackers have 2 less frames to hunt, and the defense has 2 less frames to defend with. I'm not seeing any way that this is a smart trade.

What I am trying to do in my ham handed way is look for a way that the defenders could have done better. I understand what you are saying about the Initiative, but by using that strategy they lost (admitedly just by a little bit but thats what makes this interesting to examine, it could have gone the other way).

Remember though, they only lost in the very last turn, and were winning up until then. If I hadn't hidden the crab behind the coconut crab in round 2, the win could have easily gone to the defenders.

Axhead wrote:From the look of it the on the end of turn 6 Cops had 1 frame & 2 stations @ 7 points per = 21 points (so they lost 4 frames). The 31st had 4 stations and 4 frames so they lost 2 frames. If the cops had lost the two Coconut Crabs by turn 2 they would have given up 14 Initiative (so 42 - 27) and still kept the initiative. If they had killed one key frame, say the Overwatch Meerkat the score would be 42 -24. In the resulting chase, how many points of damage did the Overwatch Meerkat cause via its d6Ra & d6Y d6Y ? I am guess a lot. This is also ignoring the possible other damage they could cause, augmented by fire from the rest of the cops who would spend the first two turns fairly unmolested as the 31st would be busy dealing with the Coconut Crabs. If they could have put a big dent in either the Sentinel or Salvaged chub, the 31st would have had its Scan (and thus killing) capabilities seriously diminished.

The Overwatch didn't cause as much damage as you might think. It can't spot for itself, after all. The Chub and Assault Meerkat caused the most damage to the enemy. The Overwatch actually did less damage than the Chub.

Axhead wrote:Its kind of like a present value of money concept where money now is worth more than the same amount later, because you can invest it at interest. So my idea is the present value of murder(tm), by killing bad guys early they have less turns to hurt you.

Yes, I see what you mean, but I don't think 2 HtH frames is enough to inflict significant damage to justify the sacrifice. One of them would be almost guaranteed to die in round 1, if not both of them, and whatever remained of them would have been finished in round 2. They would have destroyed, maybe, one frame of the attackers, and maybe a little damage to one or two other frames. That would not have been enough to stop the attackers from then pursuing the remaining 3 defense frames. The map isn't large enough that the head start on running away, that the 2 HtH frames could have given the others, would have given a serious advantage to the defenders.

Now, 3 HtH frames, that's worth using in an ambush. It's surprising just how much more damage 3 HtH frames can do in an ambush versus 2.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby calculus » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:56 pm

It's surprising just how much more damage 3 HtH frames can do in an ambush versus 2.


I think that's one of the fun and surprising things about this game - two frames are about 4x more powerful than one, and three frames are 2x more powerful than than three.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Axhead » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:11 am

Yup, there is a ton of cool gestalt effects. So if 2 HTH frames are not enough, do you think the problem is with the company composition then? Whenever games are this close, it could also just come down to who had the better dice.

Tetrajak wrote: The Overwatch didn't cause as much damage as you might think. It can't spot for itself, after all. The Chub and Assault Meerkat caused the most damage to the enemy. The Overwatch actually did less damage than the Chub.

When you say it did less damage, how are you counting all of the damage done based on its Spoting "assists"? In my (limited) experience damage is almost always done when a target has a nice juicey spot on it, the spotting frame should get as much credit as the frame that pulls the trigger. All other things being equal a frame with d6Rd d6Rd d8Rd scares me less than a frame with d6Y d6Y .
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:39 am

Axhead wrote:Yup, there is a ton of cool gestalt effects. So if 2 HTH frames are not enough, do you think the problem is with the company composition then? Whenever games are this close, it could also just come down to who had the better dice.

With a game this close, I'm not entirely certain if the company composition is a problem (considering the very close results). You'd have to test the cop company against several others in an attempt to see if you could beat it with different enemies. Having said that, the cop company has it's range split quite far apart for only 5 units, which I've found is a problem with other companies that do the same.

With 6 units, you can afford to have weapons at all 3 ranges, but with only 5 units, you can usually only safely dedicate to 2 ranges. A group of 4 frames at the same range is guaranteed to do damage. A group of 3 frames at the same range is effective. A group of 2 frames at the same range is difficult to use against more than one or two enemy frames at a time. After round 2, there were 3 cop frames, but they all had different ranges. This made them very ineffective as none of them could commonly dedicate to the same target, and stick together for safety. However, if they split up so they were all at their appropriate ranges, they would have been easy targets to pick off.

Axhead wrote:
Tetrajak wrote: The Overwatch didn't cause as much damage as you might think. It can't spot for itself, after all. The Chub and Assault Meerkat caused the most damage to the enemy. The Overwatch actually did less damage than the Chub.

When you say it did less damage, how are you counting all of the damage done based on its Spoting "assists"? In my (limited) experience damage is almost always done when a target has a nice juicey spot on it, the spotting frame should get as much credit as the frame that pulls the trigger. All other things being equal a frame with d6Rd d6Rd d8Rd scares me less than a frame with d6Y d6Y .

You make a good point. I hadn't counted spotting as damage dealt by the frame doing the spotting. However, considering how spotting works, you're right. The Overwatch therefore did about as much damage as the Chub.

d6Rd d6Rd d6Y scares me much more than d6Y d6Y
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Dukayn » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:06 am

Tetrajak wrote: d6Rd d6Rd d6Y scares me much more than d6Y d6Y

Nah you can just run away from that :P There's no hiding from d6Y d6Y
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:19 am

Dukayn wrote:
Tetrajak wrote: d6Rd d6Rd d6Y scares me much more than d6Y d6Y

Nah you can just run away from that :P There's no hiding from d6Y d6Y

d6Rd d6Rd d6Y says "I see you, and I have the guns to back it up", d6Y d6Y just says "I see you". The only time where d6Y d6Y is useful for spotting anywhere on the map is when the spotter is far out of range of the enemy (say, artillery). Most of the time you leave your spotter far behind your other units, they can be ambushed by the defense, or caught by your attackers. Sure, spotting anywhere on the map is powerful, if you have the power to back it up.

If you've got that much artillery, you're lacking in the DF or HtH to defend your artillery. If you've split the range on the artillery, you're not dedicated, and are more likely to suffer from a bad roll, or you've sacrificed movement or defense, which you'll really regret when the enemy catches you.

If you leave some DF units to guard your artillery, you're going to either lose your stations or get bombarded by the enemy. Having said that, I have yet to pit an artillery company against anyone, but their inability to shoot within DF range is a massive restriction on their survival rate in general.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Ced23Ric » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:24 am

If you think that d6Y d6Y doesn't spell a massive problem, you need to join the IRC and join our very frutiful discussions, TJ. You are right that d6Rd d6Rd means attacking. But the single d6Y means nothing for that 'frame. It's only synergistic in a bubble. d6Y d6Y is always, at any time, 100% synergistic (safe for the last activation of the round). ;)
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:13 pm

Ced23Ric wrote:If you think that d6Y d6Y doesn't spell a massive problem, you need to join the IRC and join our very frutiful discussions, TJ. You are right that d6Rd d6Rd means attacking. But the single d6Y means nothing for that 'frame. It's only synergistic in a bubble. d6Y d6Y is always, at any time, 100% synergistic (safe for the last activation of the round). ;)

Sure, with d6Y you can only spot within DF range, but your frames will usually start just out of DF range of your enemy. That means you can usually be spotting and attacking them every single round, if your frames have DF weapons. This means that you never actually need d6Y d6Y to guarantee a spot. Taking a look at the map-size-as-recommended-by-Josh; 32 units in diameter, it's very easy to get within DF range of your enemy, and stay within DF range of them. d6Y d6Y is only ever useful on much larger tables when you can't get into DF range for 2 turns or more.

When is d6Y d6Y ever useful, and what situations would it be used? Well, the obvious answer is that it's most useful to artillery units who want to stay out of DF range of the enemy. Lets say you're fielding an artillery frame, sure, it makes sense to give them d6Y d6Y , but if you always activate your artillery unit last, then you don't need any spotting on it. Let's be more generous and say you have more than one artillery frame. Now, there's the point when d6Y d6Y becomes useful; so that one can spot for another. This is the only situation I've ever found d6Y d6Y to be of any use on a battlefield that is the "optimum" size. However; again, it's very easy to get within DF range of the enemy on a 32 unit diameter map, so d6Y d6Y isn't that much of an advantage over d6Y .
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby randolph » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:18 pm

Something doesn't add up here.

32 units across. Even if you're smack in the middle, half of the distance to the edge in either direction is out of range of a Range 8 Spot. If I'm spread out (and as ranged units, I want to be spread out, to make range-limited units have a hard time switching targets), then A needs to be able to spot for B, B needs to spot for C, C needs to spot for D. If all you have is Range 8, this is tricky, but doable.

The benefit of 2Y is that A can spot for B, C, AND D, B can spot for A, C, AND D, and so on. You never have to worry about activation order. It doesn't matter which guy your opponent activates out of order, you can spot them all. It doesn't matter if your spot chain came up wrong because you did no damage, or did too much damage and needed to swap targets. They're all in range. Everywhere. Forever.
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Re: Battle Simulations (Sim 9 Posted)

Postby Tetrajak » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:52 pm

randolph wrote:Something doesn't add up here.

32 units across. Even if you're smack in the middle, half of the distance to the edge in either direction is out of range of a Range 8 Spot. If I'm spread out (and as ranged units, I want to be spread out, to make range-limited units have a hard time switching targets), then A needs to be able to spot for B, B needs to spot for C, C needs to spot for D. If all you have is Range 8, this is tricky, but doable.

The benefit of 2Y is that A can spot for B, C, AND D, B can spot for A, C, AND D, and so on. You never have to worry about activation order. It doesn't matter which guy your opponent activates out of order, you can spot them all. It doesn't matter if your spot chain came up wrong because you did no damage, or did too much damage and needed to swap targets. They're all in range. Everywhere. Forever.

However, if all your units have 2Y, then you've sacrificed movement or defense, which you pay for when (not if) the enemy catches you. It's not worth putting 2Y on DF frames, because it lowers their defense or movement so considerably that they become ineffective within their weapon range (because they're too slow, or too poorly defended).

Sure, I can see the benefit that 2Y provides, but it's not worth what you lose in exchange for it when you're at anything less than artillery range.
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